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[Music]

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this hope radio for the masses Atlanta

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believe July 3 1947 the Army Air Forces

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has announced on applying the - found

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under now in the possession of the army

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the game is rigged

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changed the game changer I occasionally

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think how quickly our differences

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worldwide would vanish if we were facing

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[Applause]

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this is fade to black with your host

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Ginny Church on the game changer radio

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network and kera the Global Radio

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we need your help to get to the year

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1985

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[Music]

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to fade to black with Jimmy touch only

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game change in network

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[Music]

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good evening fade to black

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- spoke radio for the masses how you

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doing today's Tuesday September 24th

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2019

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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268 days into the new year just 97 days

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left we're live from a bunker somewhere

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in the middle of downtown

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Burbank California

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and I would like to welcome everybody

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listening all around the world all

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across the United States hither and

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thither to and fro back and forth up and

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down east and west north and south far

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and near

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this is fade to black for kjc are the

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game changer Network and K GRA the

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planet I am your host Amy Church what is

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crack and everybody how you doing how

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you doing all right yeah just opened it

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up live on the air this is Shawn

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Patrick's new album nice note here Thank

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You Shawn and be rocking this tomorrow I

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went through his Sean Patrick phase a

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couple of years ago we became friends

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and and I listened to his stuff for like

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a week straight and and I cannot wait

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once more hate me the new CD the rocking

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this tomorrow thank you so much Shawn

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and I know you're probably listening

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right now pop something up in Twitter

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and go dude right on right on

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okay big night tonight Nick Redfern is

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here we're going to talk about his two

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latest books the alien book a guide to

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extraterrestrial beings on earth and

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flying saucers from the Kremlin I would

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like to welcome back to fade to black

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Nick Redfern Nick good evening how are

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you hey Jimmy I'm good thanks how's it

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going I just want to know what's what

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rock-and-roll shirt you have on right

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now you must have ESP I've actually got

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one on I've got a Motorhead eyes of an

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ace of spades oh that's what I'm talking

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about have you been to the rain have you

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been to the rainbow in Hollywood I have

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explained at least eight nine years ago

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something like that oh well they have

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put up you need to go again this year

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four we had our company party there last

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year we booked the whole Club by the way

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can you imagine that

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fade to black Christmas party at the

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rainbow

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we're gonna do it again this year you

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should come out because they have a

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Lemmy statue there yeah I've seen that

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actually funnily enough I've got it like

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a really cool photo of the statue with

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the light excuse me

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Rose me ellen guiley and who passed away

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just recently yes I think it was about

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four or five months ago she sent me a

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picture of her actually standing next to

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the the Lambie statue which was really

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cool well I want to take a picture of

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you standing next to the lemony statue

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all right yeah yeah do it let's do it

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the invitation is official so alright

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gotta fix my chair my chair keeps

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shrinking visit you know what we're

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gonna start off here a little bit

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strange tonight before this show not

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before the show before you came on I

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listed as somebody asked me for my

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favorite my top 10 list of UFO ET

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science fiction space films right okay

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my top 10 list and I couldn't put 10

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together I got 30 together before I get

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back to that a debate started here on

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Twitter a few minutes ago because I

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listed my number one film as 2001 a

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Space Odyssey and which I think

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qualifies as science fiction

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it could even qualify as a lean and or

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et but somebody tweeted mark out there

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in Australia said 2001 doesn't have

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aliens in it I'm like it doesn't so wait

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a minute here that's what the film is

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about I'm gonna throw that over to you

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NIC is 2001 a Space Odyssey a film about

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contact with et well I mean ironically

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um through all the writing I do I'm not

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a big fan of size I really I like I love

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horror movies but but as far as 2001 is

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concerned I mean I thought that you know

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the beginning of the movie the whole

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point is is like this extraterrestrial

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monolith

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peers and sort of gives the primitive

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Apes some sort of advanced intelligence

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you know to allow for us to sign finally

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kind of start to create civilization you

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know so but yes I mean nobody's talking

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about Nick Redfern has spoken that's it

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that's it now when and I just want to

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throw this out there at you we were

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talking about this earlier today I've

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seen what appears to be a pretty massive

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dvd/cd collection in your home yeah it's

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an entire wall but you're a media guy

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well when you think of et alien type

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films and you're a writer this is what

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you do right you're journalists what

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would be the number-one film about

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aliens or et for you oh wow you really

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put me on the spot now I'll tell you one

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that I did like and I don't think he's

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actually a massive movie was they lived

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John Carpenter's movie which was kind of

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like a satire on present-day society

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where you could only see the aliens if

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you're wearing these special sunglasses

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do you remember that one that came in it

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mine that's my number eight absolutely I

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think it's a documentary myself spot on

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the money I love it

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the soundtrack right the bass guitar

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Doonan doomed doomed right that's it so

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cool all the way through the whole movie

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I hope that guy got a good royalty check

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whoever played that bass part but yeah

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I'm with you on that they live is a

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rowdy roddy piper man it's just an

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incredible movie incredible so I'm with

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you on that my number my number three

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two and one

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my number three was Mars Attacks you

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know and a you know comedy but I really

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enjoyed it and my number two was

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Forbidden Planet and yeah yeah it's just

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an incredible film so there you go all

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right so let's yeah go after say that

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probably right near the top of mine

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would be the the original Planet of the

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Apes a lot of that 100 Z I forgot that

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and you know what else you know what

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else I forgot on my list there are so

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many great films right but I started

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thinking about this after I was done

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silent running remember that with Bruce

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Dern from like 1972 I do but I don't

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think of actually saying it since I was

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a kid I honestly don't really remember

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it much okay okay yeah fair enough a

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great movie though

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great movie I think the soundtrack the

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hit song from that probably won an Oscar

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it's got to be the morning after was the

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the song from that I can't remember who

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sang that but it was a number one hit

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somebody will pop it up here in Twitter

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shortly now let's get let's kind of get

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straight to it before we get to the

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books I want to talk about the craziness

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that has been the last couple of months

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in the UFO community all the way through

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to from the the Navy saying that

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unidentified aerial phenomena is what is

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in these three videos that were released

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this year that was huge news

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for anybody that's in the UFO community

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to have the government step forward

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they didn't say UFOs but they didn't say

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you a piece that was big and then this

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craziness that was the storm area51

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event out there in at area 51 with a

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three million people signed up but

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nobody showed up for it but it was all

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over the media right what do you think

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about UFOs in the last couple of months

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in popular culture pretty exciting well

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I mean in terms

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the whole area 51 thing I think I don't

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if my views might be quite different to

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a lot of other people but I'll tell you

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what they are I mean from my perspective

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you know you can find a lot of

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information on area 51 you know on the

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internet in books etc you can track down

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old-timers who work there and spoke to

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them and you know get a good picture of

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what was going on and what possibly is

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still going on but I have to say that

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personally I think encouraging people to

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storm US military bases is not the way

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to go my view is that you know if

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somebody said well let's get a you know

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something together where we a million

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people will try and storm the Pentagon

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you know people will be outraged and and

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quite rightly if somebody claims if

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somebody said they wanted to do that and

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let's get it going and I kind of view it

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just like that I mean just because area

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51 has this sort of cool mysterious UFO

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angle to it I don't believe at all that

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anyone should be trying to get people

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all enthused to storm a US military

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installation I mean that's just asking

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for major trouble you know I know and

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the do you and let's suppose and I

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totally agree you're spot on let's

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suppose 10,000 20,000 30,000 people you

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know did show up and and and attempted

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you know to storm those gates do you

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think that the Air Force the military

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police would have shot at American

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citizens inside of our nation's borders

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well I mean I don't know what it's hard

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to say but I mean one of the things I

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would say when you said you know we're

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shooting American citizens I mean I

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think probably one of the legitimate

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concerns that the government would have

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had is that well what if some of the

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people in that huge crowd

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we were actually inserted from foreign

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nations or whatever that might sound a

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bit paranoid

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but it's not over-the-top or impossible

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that there could have been you know

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people from some other nation seeded in

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you know playing the role of ufologists

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I mean that's something you know

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interesting and disturbing to to think

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about but I mean I just don't know what

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the response would be but I mean what I

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can say is that I mean if you go out to

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area 51

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and you get just about as far as you can

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you know before the guards come along

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and turn you around I mean it makes it

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very clear that they have you know Chris

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skews me that they have the right to use

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deadly force and you know for the most

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part I'm sure they're thinking of one or

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two people at a time if you know figures

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in say five ten thousands of people

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really did try and storm the base I mean

273
00:14:15,470 --> 00:14:12,810
I shudder to think what the response

274
00:14:17,270 --> 00:14:15,480
would have been but all I would say for

275
00:14:19,090 --> 00:14:17,280
sure is that you know they have the

276
00:14:22,550 --> 00:14:19,100
right to shoot to kill

277
00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:22,560
so yeah well if you and I were out there

278
00:14:33,830 --> 00:14:24,810
you and a misfits shirt me and a van

279
00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:33,840
Halen shirt it that has a bad ending you

280
00:14:39,020 --> 00:14:36,450
know and I've teased about it over the

281
00:14:41,450 --> 00:14:39,030
years way before this store Mary fifty

282
00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:41,460
one thing and I used to joke with Rita

283
00:14:44,210 --> 00:14:42,810
you know I would like to go out there

284
00:14:46,510 --> 00:14:44,220
and get arrested and take one for the

285
00:14:48,860 --> 00:14:46,520
team and see how far I could get inside

286
00:14:51,140 --> 00:14:48,870
you know that they wouldn't do anything

287
00:14:54,230 --> 00:14:51,150
but you know I say that kind of stuff in

288
00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:54,240
jest I'm just joking around the signs

289
00:14:59,540 --> 00:14:56,250
are clearly posted I have one right here

290
00:15:00,770 --> 00:14:59,550
in the studio right from area 51 I know

291
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:00,780
hold it up to the camera

292
00:15:07,730 --> 00:15:04,170
and it says use of deadly force right

293
00:15:10,340 --> 00:15:07,740
right there I mean so they've done their

294
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:10,350
part they've warned you and if you're

295
00:15:15,620 --> 00:15:12,930
you know if you're not smart enough to

296
00:15:19,370 --> 00:15:15,630
read and you walk past this sign well

297
00:15:21,290 --> 00:15:19,380
it's on you it's on you yeah yeah I

298
00:15:23,150 --> 00:15:21,300
think the other angle which is like

299
00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:23,160
almost like more like a pop-culture

300
00:15:31,550 --> 00:15:28,290
angle is that you know area 51 you

301
00:15:33,769 --> 00:15:31,560
don't have to be involved in ufology to

302
00:15:36,410 --> 00:15:33,779
know what area 51 is I mean you could

303
00:15:38,509 --> 00:15:36,420
ask somebody the guy down the street who

304
00:15:40,610 --> 00:15:38,519
might have no interest in UFOs

305
00:15:42,769 --> 00:15:40,620
whatsoever knows nothing about this

306
00:15:45,470 --> 00:15:42,779
object but if you were to say to him

307
00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:45,480
what's area 51 he would say oh that's

308
00:15:50,420 --> 00:15:47,490
that place out in the in the desert

309
00:15:54,199 --> 00:15:50,430
where the UFOs are everybody knows about

310
00:15:57,410 --> 00:15:54,209
it so in other words certainly in the

311
00:16:01,160 --> 00:15:57,420
last year or two area 51 has become part

312
00:16:04,819 --> 00:16:01,170
of or like a block a piece of Americana

313
00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:04,829
almost you know it's become a little bit

314
00:16:10,730 --> 00:16:08,610
of not just American history but but

315
00:16:14,689 --> 00:16:10,740
like pop culture itself quite literally

316
00:16:17,059 --> 00:16:14,699
and you know I find that intriguing that

317
00:16:20,689 --> 00:16:17,069
aspects of the UFO phenomena are now

318
00:16:23,870 --> 00:16:20,699
kind of seeping into the regular world

319
00:16:25,879 --> 00:16:23,880
outside of ufology and I think that's

320
00:16:28,509 --> 00:16:25,889
also the case you know with the whole

321
00:16:31,610 --> 00:16:28,519
issue when you brought up about the Navy

322
00:16:35,569 --> 00:16:31,620
I mean you know we were told

323
00:16:38,329 --> 00:16:35,579
up until the least late 2017 when the

324
00:16:40,579 --> 00:16:38,339
story broke about a tip and you know the

325
00:16:43,879 --> 00:16:40,589
secret investigations into UFOs which

326
00:16:46,519 --> 00:16:43,889
appeared in the New York Times you know

327
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:46,529
up until that point we've been told the

328
00:16:53,150 --> 00:16:50,010
UFO research has been shut down in 1969

329
00:16:56,090 --> 00:16:53,160
when Project Blue Book was cancelled and

330
00:16:57,290 --> 00:16:56,100
the debunkers and the skeptics said see

331
00:16:59,750 --> 00:16:57,300
there's you know they're not doing any

332
00:17:02,300 --> 00:16:59,760
research there's no more projects or

333
00:17:05,539 --> 00:17:02,310
programs or operations going on and then

334
00:17:09,020 --> 00:17:05,549
we suddenly found like 2017 there

335
00:17:10,549 --> 00:17:09,030
actually was a highly classified program

336
00:17:14,120 --> 00:17:10,559
which was doing all sorts of

337
00:17:15,890 --> 00:17:14,130
extraordinary research and so this is

338
00:17:20,199 --> 00:17:15,900
another example kind of similar to the

339
00:17:24,169 --> 00:17:20,209
area 51 thing where the media the press

340
00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:24,179
and the public sat up and took notice of

341
00:17:32,510 --> 00:17:29,370
this sudden revelation that yes there is

342
00:17:34,669 --> 00:17:32,520
an ongoing UFO program so what I'm

343
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:34,679
finding is something really interesting

344
00:17:41,770 --> 00:17:40,530
is ufology is being expanded by in

345
00:17:43,780 --> 00:17:41,780
innovation

346
00:17:46,470 --> 00:17:43,790
by the Navy you know the Navy are

347
00:17:49,390 --> 00:17:46,480
bringing attention to this phenomena and

348
00:17:53,260 --> 00:17:49,400
more and more people outside of our

349
00:17:57,100 --> 00:17:53,270
field are listening and watching so you

350
00:17:59,770 --> 00:17:57,110
know it demonstrates that those things

351
00:18:01,840 --> 00:17:59,780
are going on that I think we're not

352
00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:01,850
seeing the full picture you know I think

353
00:18:06,820 --> 00:18:05,690
what we're getting when the Navy you

354
00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:06,830
know know a tip and all these

355
00:18:12,910 --> 00:18:09,170
revelations are coming out now I'm not

356
00:18:15,550 --> 00:18:12,920
saying it's full-blown disclosure but I

357
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:15,560
think at least I just have a vibe of

358
00:18:19,990 --> 00:18:17,930
failing that this particular group and

359
00:18:22,540 --> 00:18:20,000
possibly other groups as well they're

360
00:18:24,220 --> 00:18:22,550
investigating the subjects are not just

361
00:18:26,290 --> 00:18:24,230
putting this information out because

362
00:18:30,550 --> 00:18:26,300
they feel it's in the public's interest

363
00:18:33,220 --> 00:18:30,560
but I think they're also addressing and

364
00:18:35,530 --> 00:18:33,230
trying to gauge how the public is

365
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:35,540
responding to all this and other media's

366
00:18:41,980 --> 00:18:39,290
responding and maybe you know that does

367
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:41,990
have a bearing on disclosure you know

368
00:18:45,940 --> 00:18:44,450
the idea of well let's put a little bit

369
00:18:48,970 --> 00:18:45,950
more out for them to say a little bit

370
00:18:51,730 --> 00:18:48,980
more and see how the public listens and

371
00:18:54,550 --> 00:18:51,740
sees and what they think about it so I

372
00:18:56,950 --> 00:18:54,560
think there's an agenda that goes beyond

373
00:19:00,340 --> 00:18:56,960
just investigating UFOs I think part of

374
00:19:03,100 --> 00:19:00,350
it is is to figure out how everybody's

375
00:19:05,890 --> 00:19:03,110
thinking about it you know well okay I

376
00:19:10,030 --> 00:19:05,900
don't say this ingest I say this because

377
00:19:14,950 --> 00:19:10,040
this is who you are you are somebody

378
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:14,960
that would wear a DRI or misfit shirt

379
00:19:23,470 --> 00:19:18,530
right that you are part of a culture

380
00:19:26,290 --> 00:19:23,480
that is anti-establishment and certainly

381
00:19:30,310 --> 00:19:26,300
doesn't trust the man right that's

382
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:30,320
that's that's it in your opinion are you

383
00:19:35,020 --> 00:19:32,210
saying that we should trust the man

384
00:19:39,220 --> 00:19:35,030
right now the Navy and the Pentagon to a

385
00:19:44,500 --> 00:19:39,230
certain degree or you know I want to be

386
00:19:47,530 --> 00:19:44,510
really clear here well my view actually

387
00:19:50,380 --> 00:19:47,540
is that someone on the inside or an

388
00:19:52,930 --> 00:19:50,390
agency or a think tank of a group inside

389
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:52,940
government or the intelligence community

390
00:19:58,740 --> 00:19:55,610
I I was never really a big

391
00:20:02,140 --> 00:19:58,750
supporter of disclosure I'll just

392
00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:02,150
paraphrase this first because I was I

393
00:20:06,220 --> 00:20:04,130
got sick and tired of hearing certain

394
00:20:08,260 --> 00:20:06,230
people into the disclosure movement

395
00:20:11,110 --> 00:20:08,270
saying you know I've been told by

396
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:11,120
high-ranking source the disclosures

397
00:20:15,789 --> 00:20:13,010
coming next month or three months down

398
00:20:18,820 --> 00:20:15,799
the line or I've been told it's coming

399
00:20:20,860 --> 00:20:18,830
you know nine months from now or you

400
00:20:22,780 --> 00:20:20,870
know it's coming at 3:30 or next

401
00:20:24,460 --> 00:20:22,790
thursday afternoon that kind of thing

402
00:20:26,970 --> 00:20:24,470
you know right I got sick and tired of

403
00:20:29,230 --> 00:20:26,980
the whole kind of the boy who cried wolf

404
00:20:31,930 --> 00:20:29,240
scenario you know he cries too many

405
00:20:34,830 --> 00:20:31,940
times and the wolf doesn't you know

406
00:20:38,470 --> 00:20:34,840
nobody comes and then the wolf kills him

407
00:20:40,450 --> 00:20:38,480
so but now I won't say my views have

408
00:20:44,409 --> 00:20:40,460
changed on disclosure but what I would

409
00:20:47,740 --> 00:20:44,419
say is that I do think now or at least I

410
00:20:50,049 --> 00:20:47,750
suspect that there is a genuine group

411
00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:50,059
within government's think-tank like I

412
00:20:57,730 --> 00:20:55,130
said whatever that is assessing how the

413
00:21:01,210 --> 00:20:57,740
public are of themselves assessing all

414
00:21:05,140 --> 00:21:01,220
this and how much information should be

415
00:21:06,900 --> 00:21:05,150
put out and so I think I think what

416
00:21:10,780 --> 00:21:06,910
we've seen is like a very mature

417
00:21:13,630 --> 00:21:10,790
psychological based operation to try and

418
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:13,640
and see where this can all lead and I

419
00:21:20,799 --> 00:21:17,450
think possibly there is a good a good

420
00:21:23,799 --> 00:21:20,809
possibility that somebody might be

421
00:21:28,690 --> 00:21:23,809
thinking about revealing something

422
00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:28,700
really powerful or a major speed is

423
00:21:37,330 --> 00:21:33,370
designed to you know sort of make it a

424
00:21:38,860 --> 00:21:37,340
hoax and you know yearnings collapse you

425
00:21:41,799 --> 00:21:38,870
know it could go the other way but I

426
00:21:43,780 --> 00:21:41,809
don't think it's just about UFO research

427
00:21:46,510 --> 00:21:43,790
I think a lot of it as like a

428
00:21:50,460 --> 00:21:46,520
sociological kind of aspect to it as

429
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:50,470
well do you with all of your

430
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:52,250
presentations you've been a part of the

431
00:22:00,940 --> 00:21:56,330
UFO community for a very long time with

432
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:00,950
your interactions and your knowledge do

433
00:22:08,490 --> 00:22:06,410
you think that there may be some missing

434
00:22:12,630 --> 00:22:08,500
foe or disinfo

435
00:22:15,210 --> 00:22:12,640
that is going on from inside of the UFO

436
00:22:17,730 --> 00:22:15,220
community and that what is going on

437
00:22:22,049 --> 00:22:17,740
right now the psychological test may be

438
00:22:24,750 --> 00:22:22,059
a part of it well yeah I mean I think

439
00:22:27,620 --> 00:22:24,760
within the UFO community I mean we're

440
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:27,630
always you know in a position where

441
00:22:33,299 --> 00:22:29,890
somebody might feed us something

442
00:22:35,039 --> 00:22:33,309
disinformation you know lies twisted

443
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:35,049
stories you know to push us down a

444
00:22:42,630 --> 00:22:36,850
different path I mean that's gone on

445
00:22:45,210 --> 00:22:42,640
since 1947 you know uh so it wouldn't

446
00:22:48,899 --> 00:22:45,220
surprise me if there is something like

447
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:48,909
that going a lying you know you know in

448
00:22:55,649 --> 00:22:51,850
terms of stories that may not be true

449
00:22:58,200 --> 00:22:55,659
rumors that may not be true and you know

450
00:22:59,789 --> 00:22:58,210
we're forced to try and figure out you

451
00:23:02,640 --> 00:22:59,799
know where the truth and the

452
00:23:05,490 --> 00:23:02,650
misinformation kind of pass and blend

453
00:23:08,750 --> 00:23:05,500
together possibly even and I think very

454
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:08,760
often people in ufology is sometimes

455
00:23:13,260 --> 00:23:11,650
guilty I've just seen it as black and

456
00:23:16,740 --> 00:23:13,270
white that yes the government's

457
00:23:19,620 --> 00:23:16,750
investigating UFOs and we now know that

458
00:23:21,630 --> 00:23:19,630
we did that they're doing it but the

459
00:23:24,299 --> 00:23:21,640
more you look into it you know there are

460
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:24,309
a lot of other aspects to it as well and

461
00:23:29,820 --> 00:23:27,250
I think very often the the weird and

462
00:23:32,850 --> 00:23:29,830
more manipulative side of the subject is

463
00:23:37,190 --> 00:23:32,860
very often overlooked or people don't

464
00:23:41,909 --> 00:23:37,200
necessarily even understand what it is

465
00:23:44,130 --> 00:23:41,919
so yeah you know III think everything

466
00:23:47,010 --> 00:23:44,140
that's going on right now in ufology is

467
00:23:49,730 --> 00:23:47,020
sort of shrouded in uncertainty whether

468
00:23:52,350 --> 00:23:49,740
it's the area 51 thing you know which

469
00:23:55,260 --> 00:23:52,360
which was like unheard or have you know

470
00:23:58,049 --> 00:23:55,270
this young guy just you know posted this

471
00:24:01,200 --> 00:23:58,059
thing and then everybody wants to storm

472
00:24:03,899 --> 00:24:01,210
the base you know and and then we've got

473
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:03,909
like a tip you know all these amazing

474
00:24:09,029 --> 00:24:06,250
revelations and footage and we're in an

475
00:24:11,029 --> 00:24:09,039
era of ufology which we've never really

476
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:11,039
seen it like this before I don't think

477
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:15,490
it's it's been a pretty fun ride this

478
00:24:21,570 --> 00:24:17,890
last couple of years and the reason why

479
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:21,580
I take that position is that because all

480
00:24:25,710 --> 00:24:22,290
of us

481
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:25,720
yourself included have been chasing the

482
00:24:32,790 --> 00:24:28,330
UFO question for a very long time and

483
00:24:35,550 --> 00:24:32,800
trying to get two answers and it was

484
00:24:38,130 --> 00:24:35,560
always just over there like you said

485
00:24:40,830 --> 00:24:38,140
right three months six months three

486
00:24:42,570 --> 00:24:40,840
months next year but it's coming where

487
00:24:45,570 --> 00:24:42,580
it we're close and then all of the

488
00:24:49,740 --> 00:24:45,580
sudden this this last couple of years

489
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:49,750
it's been very very easy to sit back and

490
00:24:55,650 --> 00:24:52,090
go okay it you know it's like a relief

491
00:24:59,070 --> 00:24:55,660
that this is this time this time around

492
00:25:01,410 --> 00:24:59,080
Nick it's nearly tangible right I think

493
00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:01,420
we can all feel some movement going

494
00:25:08,220 --> 00:25:03,370
forward do you feel the same thing I'm

495
00:25:11,490 --> 00:25:08,230
talking about oh yeah I think all that

496
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:11,500
we're saying now is going it's going

497
00:25:16,710 --> 00:25:13,810
ahead with a purpose mm-hmm you know and

498
00:25:18,810 --> 00:25:16,720
there's gonna be you know a final points

499
00:25:21,990 --> 00:25:18,820
of what's going down you know but the

500
00:25:24,660 --> 00:25:22,000
big question is well what is these of

501
00:25:29,070 --> 00:25:24,670
the modus operandi you know what is the

502
00:25:33,510 --> 00:25:29,080
ultimate goal is it to confuse confuse

503
00:25:38,310 --> 00:25:33,520
security confuse us even more is it to

504
00:25:39,810 --> 00:25:38,320
give us disclosure or is it to possibly

505
00:25:42,510 --> 00:25:39,820
even this might sound a little bit

506
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:42,520
paranoid but you know if there's some

507
00:25:49,410 --> 00:25:45,730
sort of rogue organization that make one

508
00:25:51,750 --> 00:25:49,420
a stage UFO events you know as possibly

509
00:25:54,180 --> 00:25:51,760
as a means to sort of create more and

510
00:25:59,090 --> 00:25:54,190
more fear in the world you know I mean

511
00:26:01,770 --> 00:25:59,100
the idea of a bogus you know a faked

512
00:26:04,860 --> 00:26:01,780
alien event that kind of thing another

513
00:26:07,830 --> 00:26:04,870
you know another way to take away a few

514
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:07,840
of our rights etc well anything is

515
00:26:14,190 --> 00:26:10,210
possible right one thing I have learned

516
00:26:16,650 --> 00:26:14,200
I will never be surprised when it comes

517
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:16,660
to the UFO question anything is possible

518
00:26:22,470 --> 00:26:20,530
and I don't know how it is going to

519
00:26:24,990 --> 00:26:22,480
continue to play out but I also know

520
00:26:28,260 --> 00:26:25,000
that the United States isn't the only

521
00:26:31,890 --> 00:26:28,270
player here this is a global thing there

522
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:31,900
are plenty of state actors here and when

523
00:26:34,940 --> 00:26:33,610
we come back we're going to talk about

524
00:26:37,370 --> 00:26:34,950
your new book

525
00:26:38,899 --> 00:26:37,380
flying saucers from the Kremlin because

526
00:26:43,580 --> 00:26:38,909
he bring up a couple of points in this

527
00:26:46,340 --> 00:26:43,590
book that even for me with an open mind

528
00:26:48,620 --> 00:26:46,350
didn't consider and I had to step back

529
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:48,630
and go Nick Nick may be on to something

530
00:26:52,789 --> 00:26:50,490
here and it's not the first time that

531
00:26:56,299 --> 00:26:52,799
you've done this to me by the way it's

532
00:27:01,700 --> 00:26:56,309
not the first time I remember I remember

533
00:27:04,070 --> 00:27:01,710
five years ago you were I was hosting a

534
00:27:06,740 --> 00:27:04,080
panel you were on it and I turned to the

535
00:27:07,789 --> 00:27:06,750
crowd when I introduced you I don't know

536
00:27:10,220 --> 00:27:07,799
if you remember this boat but I

537
00:27:12,529 --> 00:27:10,230
introduced you I made a confession and I

538
00:27:16,279 --> 00:27:12,539
said Nick is where I get all of my new

539
00:27:18,769 --> 00:27:16,289
stuff from I go and I and I read Nick

540
00:27:22,430 --> 00:27:18,779
stuff and I've got things to talk about

541
00:27:25,580 --> 00:27:22,440
and and do you remember that moment when

542
00:27:28,490 --> 00:27:25,590
I said that was that when we were in the

543
00:27:30,889 --> 00:27:28,500
desert they may have been yes yeah I

544
00:27:33,049 --> 00:27:30,899
remember because I remember it was

545
00:27:39,430 --> 00:27:33,059
roasting and like people were dropping

546
00:27:42,169 --> 00:27:39,440
like flies in the audience laughing yeah

547
00:27:44,210 --> 00:27:42,179
and you did it once again in this book

548
00:27:46,190 --> 00:27:44,220
and we will talk about it when we come

549
00:27:48,620 --> 00:27:46,200
back after this short break our guest

550
00:27:49,460 --> 00:27:48,630
tonight Nick Redfern I am your host

551
00:27:51,409 --> 00:27:49,470
Jimmy Church

552
00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:51,419
this is fade to black now you can follow

553
00:27:56,870 --> 00:27:53,370
me on twitter IG a church radio Nick

554
00:27:59,779 --> 00:27:56,880
what's your Twitter Nick Redfern UFO

555
00:28:01,159 --> 00:27:59,789
Nick Redfern UFO I just wanted to hear

556
00:28:02,509 --> 00:28:01,169
you say it we've got it up there on

557
00:28:04,250 --> 00:28:02,519
Twitter right now we'll be right back

558
00:28:15,350 --> 00:28:04,260
after this short break stay with us

559
00:28:26,460 --> 00:28:24,200
[Music]

560
00:28:28,670 --> 00:28:26,470
welcome back fade to black our mystery

561
00:28:32,250 --> 00:28:28,680
Church our guest tonight Nick Redfern

562
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:32,260
there's two latest books the alien book

563
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:34,450
a guide to extraterrestrial beings on

564
00:28:38,130 --> 00:28:36,250
earth and flying saucers from the

565
00:28:40,410 --> 00:28:38,140
Kremlin of the subject of this show

566
00:28:43,350 --> 00:28:40,420
tonight we're gonna start with flying

567
00:28:44,910 --> 00:28:43,360
saucers from the Kremlin and I was

568
00:28:49,410 --> 00:28:44,920
actually thinking about flipping it

569
00:28:50,700 --> 00:28:49,420
around but and starting with the alien

570
00:28:54,260 --> 00:28:50,710
book but we're gonna start with the

571
00:28:59,160 --> 00:28:54,270
Kremlin and the reason for that Nick is

572
00:29:01,170 --> 00:28:59,170
after reading the book I thought that we

573
00:29:02,910 --> 00:29:01,180
had crazy town here in the United States

574
00:29:08,250 --> 00:29:02,920
when it came to the Hyuga folk question

575
00:29:10,710 --> 00:29:08,260
right I really did and it seems I want

576
00:29:13,310 --> 00:29:10,720
your to start with your opinion and and

577
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:13,320
why you chose to write this book because

578
00:29:21,390 --> 00:29:17,170
they've got the same issues if not more

579
00:29:25,770 --> 00:29:21,400
than what goes on here with UFO research

580
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:25,780
in the United States right well yeah the

581
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:28,570
book it's probably probably the most

582
00:29:34,620 --> 00:29:30,970
well one of the most controversial books

583
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:34,630
I've written and basically it's a study

584
00:29:41,190 --> 00:29:37,570
of how throughout the entire Cold War

585
00:29:43,980 --> 00:29:41,200
the Russians tried to use the UFO

586
00:29:46,980 --> 00:29:43,990
subject as a means of like psychological

587
00:29:51,060 --> 00:29:46,990
warfare and to sort of create hysteria

588
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:51,070
and paranoia in the United States and of

589
00:29:55,700 --> 00:29:52,810
course the big question is you know what

590
00:29:58,380 --> 00:29:55,710
prompted this and how did they decide to

591
00:29:59,100 --> 00:29:58,390
sort of hijack if you like a real

592
00:30:01,260 --> 00:29:59,110
phenomenon

593
00:30:02,220 --> 00:30:01,270
you know the genuine UFO phenomena which

594
00:30:05,460 --> 00:30:02,230
we know exists

595
00:30:08,790 --> 00:30:05,470
but the Russians hijacked if you like

596
00:30:12,860 --> 00:30:08,800
the phenomenon and used it as sort of a

597
00:30:15,330 --> 00:30:12,870
tool of psychological warfare and

598
00:30:17,420 --> 00:30:15,340
destabilization I'll give you a sort of

599
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:17,430
classic example of what I mean by this

600
00:30:23,310 --> 00:30:20,050
one of the earliest things I talk about

601
00:30:26,790 --> 00:30:23,320
in the book is the saga of George

602
00:30:29,670 --> 00:30:26,800
Adamski now Adamski as you know was one

603
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:29,680
of the early so-called contactees you

604
00:30:35,310 --> 00:30:32,170
know we hear a lot about the abductees

605
00:30:37,170 --> 00:30:35,320
today but back in the early 50s it was

606
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:37,180
the contactees people

607
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:39,850
who claimed that they'd been contacted

608
00:30:45,660 --> 00:30:42,610
by very human looking aliens out in

609
00:30:51,390 --> 00:30:45,670
desert locations like Utah New Mexico

610
00:30:53,910 --> 00:30:51,400
California and so on and typically these

611
00:30:56,370 --> 00:30:53,920
people who were sort of targeted by the

612
00:30:58,560 --> 00:30:56,380
aliens were told you know you're going

613
00:31:00,600 --> 00:30:58,570
to be sort of one of our disciples

614
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:00,610
almost if you like and we want you to go

615
00:31:06,060 --> 00:31:03,730
out and spread the word but you know you

616
00:31:08,220 --> 00:31:06,070
need to the earth needs to lay down its

617
00:31:11,730 --> 00:31:08,230
atomic weapons and everybody needs to

618
00:31:15,810 --> 00:31:11,740
live in peace now George Adamski sort of

619
00:31:19,710 --> 00:31:15,820
really embraced that scenario and wrote

620
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:19,720
a book called flying saucers what was he

621
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:21,970
called now flight sources have handed

622
00:31:31,350 --> 00:31:27,970
and Adamski his book co-written with

623
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:31,360
with a colleague basically the the sales

624
00:31:37,770 --> 00:31:34,090
went through the roof in no time at all

625
00:31:40,100 --> 00:31:37,780
it's sold 125,000 copies now at the time

626
00:31:43,020 --> 00:31:40,110
when he was lecturing about his book

627
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:43,030
Adamski was telling the audience that

628
00:31:49,590 --> 00:31:45,970
the space brothers which were these

629
00:31:52,170 --> 00:31:49,600
which was the title for these very human

630
00:31:54,690 --> 00:31:52,180
looking aliens the space brothers

631
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:54,700
according to Adamski were were

632
00:32:00,570 --> 00:31:57,130
communists or they had a government very

633
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:00,580
similar to communism and he also spoke

634
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:03,730
on the lecture circuit quite visibly and

635
00:32:10,380 --> 00:32:06,850
openly saying that the the Russians

636
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:10,390
would basically defeat the West and then

637
00:32:14,910 --> 00:32:13,210
to be to quote from him a thousand years

638
00:32:19,550 --> 00:32:14,920
of peace a lot of people don't realize

639
00:32:23,430 --> 00:32:19,560
how strongly Adamski bought into

640
00:32:26,750 --> 00:32:23,440
communism and now the FBI got very

641
00:32:28,830 --> 00:32:26,760
interested and very concerned about

642
00:32:30,780 --> 00:32:28,840
Adamski's lectures and how he was

643
00:32:33,300 --> 00:32:30,790
putting this communist slant on it and

644
00:32:35,910 --> 00:32:33,310
what he did ask him what the FBI did was

645
00:32:39,810 --> 00:32:35,920
to open a file on him and just to give

646
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:39,820
you an idea of how deeply and widely the

647
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:43,810
FBI kept an eye on Adamski

648
00:32:48,780 --> 00:32:46,090
not too long ago they finally released

649
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:48,790
every single page they have on a damn

650
00:32:53,580 --> 00:32:50,890
ski surveillance files

651
00:32:57,289 --> 00:32:53,590
and it turned out it was just over 400

652
00:33:00,060 --> 00:32:57,299
pages of FBI surveillance documents on

653
00:33:03,270 --> 00:33:00,070
Adamski that demonstrates just how much

654
00:33:05,370 --> 00:33:03,280
they watched him now if Adamski had just

655
00:33:07,830 --> 00:33:05,380
been lecturing so shall we say on a

656
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:07,840
Sunday afternoon in a local library and

657
00:33:12,690 --> 00:33:09,970
there was five people and somebody's dog

658
00:33:14,370 --> 00:33:12,700
and cat in the audience you know the FBI

659
00:33:16,350 --> 00:33:14,380
wouldn't have wouldn't have bothered

660
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:16,360
they wouldn't have cared but the fact

661
00:33:20,460 --> 00:33:18,970
that this man was selling his book in a

662
00:33:23,549 --> 00:33:20,470
hundred and twenty five thousand copies

663
00:33:27,150 --> 00:33:23,559
and was saying that communism was good

664
00:33:30,539 --> 00:33:27,160
the aliens are communists the FBI came

665
00:33:33,530 --> 00:33:30,549
around to the suspicion the Adamski had

666
00:33:36,390 --> 00:33:33,540
been sort of recruited to in effect

667
00:33:39,419 --> 00:33:36,400
spread communism in the United States

668
00:33:40,110 --> 00:33:39,429
but to do it under the banner of the UFO

669
00:33:46,409 --> 00:33:40,120
subject

670
00:33:50,610 --> 00:33:46,419
ouch-ouch especially back then oh right

671
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:50,620
and and it wasn't it wasn't just one

672
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:52,450
specific thing with the damn ski either

673
00:33:59,010 --> 00:33:56,410
he was popular in Europe he allegedly

674
00:34:00,240 --> 00:33:59,020
didn't he meet the Pope right or he says

675
00:34:03,030 --> 00:34:00,250
he did well yeah

676
00:34:05,430 --> 00:34:03,040
allegedly he met the Pope and he made a

677
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:05,440
lot of sort of grand claims and things

678
00:34:11,010 --> 00:34:08,290
like this but the important thing to

679
00:34:13,950 --> 00:34:11,020
know you know is that how how

680
00:34:17,070 --> 00:34:13,960
influential the whole space brother

681
00:34:19,770 --> 00:34:17,080
contactee movement was at that time I

682
00:34:21,359 --> 00:34:19,780
mean give you a good example in case you

683
00:34:24,090 --> 00:34:21,369
know for the listeners who may not know

684
00:34:26,490 --> 00:34:24,100
I mean you probably agree with me that

685
00:34:28,169 --> 00:34:26,500
most UFO conferences you get in audience

686
00:34:30,389 --> 00:34:28,179
roundabouts use about four to five

687
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:30,399
hundred something like that

688
00:34:35,609 --> 00:34:33,850
well back in the early 1950s one of the

689
00:34:39,030 --> 00:34:35,619
other contactees

690
00:34:41,669 --> 00:34:39,040
George Van Tassel put on a regular UFO

691
00:34:44,730 --> 00:34:41,679
conference out in the California desert

692
00:34:47,070 --> 00:34:44,740
just outside the town of Landers and at

693
00:34:49,919 --> 00:34:47,080
its height that conference was getting

694
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:49,929
audiences of around about 11 to 12

695
00:34:55,710 --> 00:34:52,690
thousand the trifle that's right which

696
00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:55,720
he so that was the FBI's be concerned

697
00:34:59,970 --> 00:34:57,970
that because of danske and some of these

698
00:35:03,359 --> 00:34:59,980
other contactees were subtly and

699
00:35:04,860 --> 00:35:03,369
sometimes far less and subtly trying to

700
00:35:07,530 --> 00:35:04,870
play the calm

701
00:35:10,140 --> 00:35:07,540
his card so to speak that's why the FBI

702
00:35:12,210 --> 00:35:10,150
got so concerned that they were

703
00:35:16,830 --> 00:35:12,220
wondering well does he is illegitimate

704
00:35:18,330 --> 00:35:16,840
about Sandy's medallions or is he just

705
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:18,340
trying to reel people into his

706
00:35:23,970 --> 00:35:21,490
conferences and lectures and then subtly

707
00:35:26,100 --> 00:35:23,980
stop talking about communism and by the

708
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:26,110
end of the lecture you know a

709
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:28,090
significant percentage of the author of

710
00:35:32,340 --> 00:35:29,650
the audience might be thinking well

711
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:32,350
maybe communism isn't so bad after all

712
00:35:37,980 --> 00:35:35,170
that's what the FBI is big fear was and

713
00:35:39,870 --> 00:35:37,990
and as the years progressed the FBI and

714
00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:39,880
other intelligence agencies in the u.s.

715
00:35:47,550 --> 00:35:42,250
had to deal with more and more of this

716
00:35:50,100 --> 00:35:47,560
sort of created or expanded upon Russian

717
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:50,110
propaganda did you find a direct

718
00:35:57,330 --> 00:35:53,050
connection between Adamski and the

719
00:35:59,220 --> 00:35:57,340
Kremlin well what I did find is that in

720
00:36:02,220 --> 00:35:59,230
one of the documents the official

721
00:36:04,740 --> 00:36:02,230
documents it talks about one of the

722
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:04,750
primary reasons why Adamski was watched

723
00:36:11,730 --> 00:36:07,810
was because on one occasion he was seen

724
00:36:14,790 --> 00:36:11,740
talking you know in a cafe or outside of

725
00:36:17,670 --> 00:36:14,800
the cafe I should say with four or five

726
00:36:21,270 --> 00:36:17,680
people who actually speaking to him in

727
00:36:25,140 --> 00:36:21,280
Russian which is like a really bizarre

728
00:36:28,500 --> 00:36:25,150
and sort of eye-opening scenario you

729
00:36:32,490 --> 00:36:28,510
know following Adam skiing downtown Los

730
00:36:34,950 --> 00:36:32,500
Angeles and finding out that he actually

731
00:36:40,170 --> 00:36:34,960
really did have connections did he so

732
00:36:42,450 --> 00:36:40,180
person did he speak Russian well not as

733
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:42,460
far as I know but how many easily spoke

734
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:45,970
fluent Polish politics from right right

735
00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:49,810
yeah yes so you know I mean we don't

736
00:36:54,870 --> 00:36:51,730
know the problem is you know we don't

737
00:36:58,260 --> 00:36:54,880
know the full story and I don't think

738
00:37:01,890 --> 00:36:58,270
the FBI ever really fully resolved it

739
00:37:05,010 --> 00:37:01,900
all to their satisfaction but but that

740
00:37:06,050 --> 00:37:05,020
was really one of the primary sort of

741
00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:06,060
psychological warfare

742
00:37:13,470 --> 00:37:09,250
counterintelligence operations that the

743
00:37:16,110 --> 00:37:13,480
Russians fired against the United States

744
00:37:18,810 --> 00:37:16,120
if you like as a means like another

745
00:37:22,670 --> 00:37:18,820
means to sort of try and find

746
00:37:26,130 --> 00:37:22,680
ways to like to make people if you like

747
00:37:29,550 --> 00:37:26,140
be open at least to the idea of

748
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:29,560
communism and Roswell

749
00:37:36,270 --> 00:37:33,970
Annie Jacobson pointed out in her book

750
00:37:43,370 --> 00:37:36,280
secrets of area 51 I think that's what

751
00:37:50,150 --> 00:37:43,380
it was called that Roswell may have been

752
00:37:53,430 --> 00:37:50,160
an aircraft from either Russia or a Nazi

753
00:37:56,610 --> 00:37:53,440
experimental craft that not not craft

754
00:37:58,320 --> 00:37:56,620
but plane and that Russia got their

755
00:38:00,480 --> 00:37:58,330
hands on it and that's what crashed in

756
00:38:04,230 --> 00:38:00,490
Roswell to scare the crap out of us and

757
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:04,240
use the UFO side of things against us

758
00:38:11,580 --> 00:38:09,370
any any truth to that well I mean this

759
00:38:15,180 --> 00:38:11,590
is a really controversial story as you

760
00:38:19,380 --> 00:38:15,190
said it's surfaced in Annie Jacobson's

761
00:38:22,170 --> 00:38:19,390
2011 book on area 51 and it tells a very

762
00:38:24,330 --> 00:38:22,180
controversial story which came from a

763
00:38:27,030 --> 00:38:24,340
guy named Alfred O'Donnell who actually

764
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:27,040
spent time in the intelligence community

765
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:30,810
and spent time working at area 51 and

766
00:38:40,140 --> 00:38:35,890
the claim that he made - excuse me -

767
00:38:43,380 --> 00:38:40,150
Annie Jacobson was that the Roswell

768
00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:43,390
crash didn't involve aliens but revolved

769
00:38:51,950 --> 00:38:47,710
around an advanced aircraft built and

770
00:38:54,540 --> 00:38:51,960
flown as a result of research undertaken

771
00:38:57,750 --> 00:38:54,550
by the Nazis in the Second World War

772
00:39:00,690 --> 00:38:57,760
which supposedly to save the Soviet

773
00:39:04,890 --> 00:39:00,700
premier Joseph Stalin got his hands on

774
00:39:09,540 --> 00:39:04,900
and the story is that the the plan was

775
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:09,550
to have this futuristic looking aircraft

776
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:12,130
fly from Russia to the United States and

777
00:39:15,810 --> 00:39:13,930
land and because it would look so

778
00:39:18,270 --> 00:39:15,820
futuristic people would think it was a

779
00:39:21,780 --> 00:39:18,280
spacecraft from another world and just

780
00:39:26,730 --> 00:39:21,790
to expand the story even further

781
00:39:30,150 --> 00:39:26,740
supposedly Stalin scientists and again

782
00:39:32,190 --> 00:39:30,160
allegedly genetically altered or

783
00:39:32,660 --> 00:39:32,200
physically altered a number of children

784
00:39:37,130 --> 00:39:32,670
to my

785
00:39:39,530 --> 00:39:37,140
them look alien like if you like and so

786
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:39,540
that when they when the craft landed and

787
00:39:42,620 --> 00:39:40,770
the doors opened

788
00:39:44,720 --> 00:39:42,630
you know the people would say the

789
00:39:47,690 --> 00:39:44,730
strange craft and these bizarre looking

790
00:39:50,420 --> 00:39:47,700
children who they would assume were as

791
00:39:53,030 --> 00:39:50,430
there were children's now from my

792
00:39:57,380 --> 00:39:53,040
perspective I find all of this a little

793
00:40:00,559 --> 00:39:57,390
bit too to create it if you like you

794
00:40:02,420 --> 00:40:00,569
know too much staged in terms of exactly

795
00:40:05,150 --> 00:40:02,430
what was going down and there are so

796
00:40:07,819 --> 00:40:05,160
many aspects to this particular story

797
00:40:09,349 --> 00:40:07,829
that don't hold up that lets me to

798
00:40:12,490 --> 00:40:09,359
believe that

799
00:40:14,930 --> 00:40:12,500
Annie Jacobson was fed this story

800
00:40:17,049 --> 00:40:14,940
deliberately now if you read her book

801
00:40:20,089 --> 00:40:17,059
it's actually very very good Balkan

802
00:40:23,270 --> 00:40:20,099
welcome yeah yeah and it's filled with

803
00:40:26,270 --> 00:40:23,280
all sorts of you know really interesting

804
00:40:29,510 --> 00:40:26,280
information on area 51 but what I think

805
00:40:32,150 --> 00:40:29,520
happened is that when her book came out

806
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:32,160
and this is just my opinion or my

807
00:40:36,079 --> 00:40:34,530
suspicions what I think is that when the

808
00:40:38,420 --> 00:40:36,089
book came out there were people on the

809
00:40:41,690 --> 00:40:38,430
inside who said look you know this is a

810
00:40:44,510 --> 00:40:41,700
bit too close you know to what we don't

811
00:40:47,299 --> 00:40:44,520
want getting out there so I think she

812
00:40:51,819 --> 00:40:47,309
may have been fed this Roswell story

813
00:40:54,859 --> 00:40:51,829
this Russian Roswell story as a means to

814
00:40:59,000 --> 00:40:54,869
essentially sensationalize the book and

815
00:41:01,849 --> 00:40:59,010
keep the story of Roswell in the media's

816
00:41:04,339 --> 00:41:01,859
mind while the actual the real good

817
00:41:06,289 --> 00:41:04,349
material was not picked up on by the

818
00:41:09,049 --> 00:41:06,299
media and for the most part that's what

819
00:41:11,210 --> 00:41:09,059
happened most of the media was a lot of

820
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:11,220
the media that interviewed Annie

821
00:41:15,109 --> 00:41:13,290
Jacobson for her book a lot of it you

822
00:41:17,569 --> 00:41:15,119
know did revolve around the Roswell

823
00:41:21,710 --> 00:41:17,579
story that was in her book so I

824
00:41:24,319 --> 00:41:21,720
sometimes wonder that this the whole

825
00:41:29,839 --> 00:41:24,329
Roswell thing may have been given to her

826
00:41:32,150 --> 00:41:29,849
and inserted as a means to the voice of

827
00:41:35,359 --> 00:41:32,160
the bay da focusing too much on the

828
00:41:36,859 --> 00:41:35,369
really good material she stands by she

829
00:41:39,740 --> 00:41:36,869
stands by the ending in the book though

830
00:41:42,170 --> 00:41:39,750
she does I had her on the show again

831
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:42,180
she's been on many times I enter on last

832
00:41:46,859 --> 00:41:43,690
month

833
00:41:49,170 --> 00:41:46,869
and that question came up again because

834
00:41:52,260 --> 00:41:49,180
of what's going down at Hillary 51 right

835
00:41:54,030 --> 00:41:52,270
now and that came up but she said you

836
00:41:59,730 --> 00:41:54,040
know I stand by it

837
00:42:02,910 --> 00:41:59,740
I I stand by what I wrote no oh yeah I

838
00:42:04,559 --> 00:42:02,920
mean don't get me wrong I mean you know

839
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:04,569
there's no doubt that she was given this

840
00:42:08,910 --> 00:42:06,490
story you know by this elderly guy who

841
00:42:13,470 --> 00:42:08,920
worked in the intelligence community I

842
00:42:15,930 --> 00:42:13,480
don't dispute that at all where is Annie

843
00:42:18,690 --> 00:42:15,940
you know he's inclined I think to think

844
00:42:22,230 --> 00:42:18,700
it's the real answer to Roswell I think

845
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:22,240
it was a bogus story designed to ensure

846
00:42:27,900 --> 00:42:25,810
that that's Annie's book was when the

847
00:42:32,069 --> 00:42:27,910
media came along they would focus on the

848
00:42:34,349 --> 00:42:32,079
Roswell story and the the real area 51

849
00:42:40,079 --> 00:42:34,359
Secrets would be sort of glossed over by

850
00:42:43,349 --> 00:42:40,089
the media now the let's just go let's go

851
00:42:45,809 --> 00:42:43,359
straight at it there's a chapter in the

852
00:42:49,349 --> 00:42:45,819
book maybe a little more than that about

853
00:42:52,079 --> 00:42:49,359
the mj-12 documents and before we get

854
00:42:55,230 --> 00:42:52,089
into that because I can see is talking

855
00:43:00,390 --> 00:42:55,240
about this for quite a while the mj-12

856
00:43:05,460 --> 00:43:00,400
documents for me except for maybe one

857
00:43:08,190 --> 00:43:05,470
page of all of it I think that they were

858
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:08,200
fictitious okay that that's my take but

859
00:43:13,980 --> 00:43:11,410
it had such an impact on the UFO

860
00:43:16,260 --> 00:43:13,990
community there are stuffs we're talking

861
00:43:22,740 --> 00:43:16,270
about it now right still spoken about

862
00:43:25,050 --> 00:43:22,750
today it was a huge huge story in the

863
00:43:27,059 --> 00:43:25,060
UFO community when that broke I mean I

864
00:43:28,740 --> 00:43:27,069
could it was like every single day right

865
00:43:31,319 --> 00:43:28,750
you remember that every day there was

866
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:31,329
some other some other piece of the pie

867
00:43:38,099 --> 00:43:35,050
and it was it was fun that was a good

868
00:43:39,930 --> 00:43:38,109
ride but today I look back and go well

869
00:43:43,260 --> 00:43:39,940
okay it was interesting it was fun it

870
00:43:45,990 --> 00:43:43,270
was cool but it was bogus I don't know

871
00:43:51,720 --> 00:43:46,000
and I don't think anybody else does to

872
00:43:54,540 --> 00:43:51,730
this day with a concrete fashion know

873
00:43:56,450 --> 00:43:54,550
who what when and where created the

874
00:44:00,579 --> 00:43:56,460
mj-12 documents

875
00:44:03,370 --> 00:44:00,589
that's where we are at and once again

876
00:44:07,790 --> 00:44:03,380
you-you-you put something out there that

877
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:07,800
I never considered I never did so let's

878
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:10,170
let's actually start there you've got me

879
00:44:20,329 --> 00:44:16,770
thinking again Nick okay well basically

880
00:44:23,780 --> 00:44:20,339
for people who may not be fully familiar

881
00:44:26,380 --> 00:44:23,790
with mj-12 or majestic 12 it was

882
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:26,390
essentially allegedly a group

883
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:28,410
established in the wake of the Roswell

884
00:44:35,390 --> 00:44:32,130
crash in the summer of 1947 to create

885
00:44:38,660 --> 00:44:35,400
this super secret organization called

886
00:44:41,390 --> 00:44:38,670
majestic 12 that would be deeply buried

887
00:44:44,810 --> 00:44:41,400
within the heart of the US intelligence

888
00:44:48,589 --> 00:44:44,820
community and its goal would be to hide

889
00:44:51,620 --> 00:44:48,599
the real sensational UFO data Roswell

890
00:44:52,220 --> 00:44:51,630
alien bodies alien autopsies that kind

891
00:44:55,720 --> 00:44:52,230
of thing

892
00:44:59,200 --> 00:44:55,730
and the story sort of began in the early

893
00:45:01,520 --> 00:44:59,210
1980s when Bill Moore who co-wrote with

894
00:45:04,250 --> 00:45:01,530
Charles Berlitz the book the Roswell

895
00:45:06,770 --> 00:45:04,260
incident bought the more that Moore who

896
00:45:09,170 --> 00:45:06,780
looked into this he started to be

897
00:45:13,910 --> 00:45:09,180
contacted by sort of whistleblowers

898
00:45:16,099 --> 00:45:13,920
insiders who would hand over to him what

899
00:45:18,980 --> 00:45:16,109
was perceived to be at least highly

900
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:18,990
classified documents on this majestic 12

901
00:45:24,589 --> 00:45:21,810
group and the work they were doing in

902
00:45:28,670 --> 00:45:24,599
relation to Roswell and crashed UFOs and

903
00:45:31,730 --> 00:45:28,680
the whole thing now the the whole thing

904
00:45:34,460 --> 00:45:31,740
really came to a head in December 1984

905
00:45:39,470 --> 00:45:34,470
when a colleague and friend of more

906
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:39,480
named Jeremy Chandra received a role a

907
00:45:44,810 --> 00:45:41,970
trail of film that showed a number of

908
00:45:48,710 --> 00:45:44,820
these documents and they they printed

909
00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:48,720
them off and and that's when the whole

910
00:45:52,940 --> 00:45:50,250
thing really kicked off and Stan

911
00:45:55,670 --> 00:45:52,950
Freedman became the without doubt you

912
00:45:59,359 --> 00:45:55,680
know the foremost expert and also

913
00:46:01,099 --> 00:45:59,369
champion of the mj-12 documents stand to

914
00:46:03,460 --> 00:46:01,109
his dying day believed that you know

915
00:46:05,450 --> 00:46:03,470
these mj-12 documents were real

916
00:46:09,569 --> 00:46:05,460
documents and there and there was a

917
00:46:12,359 --> 00:46:09,579
genuine majestic 12 group as well

918
00:46:15,510 --> 00:46:12,369
now I kind of have a very different

919
00:46:19,020 --> 00:46:15,520
approach to this which fears away from

920
00:46:21,599 --> 00:46:19,030
the angle of real dead aliens and real

921
00:46:24,690 --> 00:46:21,609
crushed UFOs but again to something that

922
00:46:29,670 --> 00:46:24,700
a lot of people may not think about but

923
00:46:32,309 --> 00:46:29,680
which again had a deep effect if you

924
00:46:34,950 --> 00:46:32,319
like on us intelligence and interesting

925
00:46:37,950 --> 00:46:34,960
Leela particularly not just the Air

926
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:37,960
Force but also the FBI again who were

927
00:46:44,700 --> 00:46:41,410
heavily involved with Adamski now the

928
00:46:47,250 --> 00:46:44,710
FBI looked at various theories as to

929
00:46:50,339 --> 00:46:47,260
what the mj-12 documents were because if

930
00:46:52,799 --> 00:46:50,349
they were the real thing then someone

931
00:46:54,720 --> 00:46:52,809
had leaked highly classified US

932
00:46:56,730 --> 00:46:54,730
government documents you know so what it

933
00:47:00,390 --> 00:46:56,740
was almost like perceived almost like a

934
00:47:02,970 --> 00:47:00,400
an earlier edward snowden type situation

935
00:47:06,599 --> 00:47:02,980
you know somebody leaking out highly

936
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:06,609
classified material but over time the

937
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:09,490
FBI came to believe that the documents

938
00:47:14,460 --> 00:47:12,010
were not real but they also didn't

939
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:14,470
believe he was just like some you know

940
00:47:19,260 --> 00:47:16,770
some guy in his basement just

941
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:19,270
fabricating them for the fun of it what

942
00:47:24,150 --> 00:47:21,970
the FBI believed was that the documents

943
00:47:26,460 --> 00:47:24,160
rich or suspected I should say they

944
00:47:30,240 --> 00:47:26,470
suspected that the documents may have

945
00:47:32,609 --> 00:47:30,250
been created by the KGB in Russia and

946
00:47:35,250 --> 00:47:32,619
the reason being and animation to get

947
00:47:37,819 --> 00:47:35,260
some official documentation on this in

948
00:47:40,250 --> 00:47:37,829
the same time that bill Moore and Stan

949
00:47:44,099 --> 00:47:40,260
were looking into the mj-12 documents

950
00:47:46,380 --> 00:47:44,109
the FBI was very concerned because there

951
00:47:53,010 --> 00:47:46,390
were a number of people working in the

952
00:47:55,620 --> 00:47:53,020
US intelligence aerospace angle and the

953
00:47:57,930 --> 00:47:55,630
FBI was concerned that some of these

954
00:48:01,260 --> 00:47:57,940
people had either been turned by the

955
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:01,270
Russians or were in the in the process

956
00:48:08,549 --> 00:48:03,970
of being turned by the Russians and the

957
00:48:10,500 --> 00:48:08,559
FBI's concern was that the let's say for

958
00:48:13,049 --> 00:48:10,510
example you've got John Smith working at

959
00:48:15,030 --> 00:48:13,059
one particular air chrous classified

960
00:48:18,390 --> 00:48:15,040
aircraft program and he suddenly

961
00:48:20,430 --> 00:48:18,400
approached by a guy named Ivan who says

962
00:48:22,450 --> 00:48:20,440
you know if you tell us all about this

963
00:48:25,300 --> 00:48:22,460
new aircraft program you

964
00:48:27,849 --> 00:48:25,310
working on will give you some classified

965
00:48:30,220 --> 00:48:27,859
US government files and UFOs which we've

966
00:48:33,460 --> 00:48:30,230
managed together our hands on in the

967
00:48:35,620 --> 00:48:33,470
Kremlin and you share what what you've

968
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:35,630
got and we'll share what you've got and

969
00:48:41,829 --> 00:48:38,690
the FBI was also concerned that some of

970
00:48:44,170 --> 00:48:41,839
these UFO races researchers who worked

971
00:48:48,310 --> 00:48:44,180
in the intelligence community would not

972
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:48,320
be able to avoid the the lure so to

973
00:48:54,700 --> 00:48:52,010
speak the dangling carrot and so the FBI

974
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:54,710
started to keep a look on a lot of

975
00:48:58,180 --> 00:48:56,570
people who worked in the intelligence

976
00:49:01,510 --> 00:48:58,190
community and who had a personal

977
00:49:03,370 --> 00:49:01,520
interest in UFOs and and even more and

978
00:49:07,390 --> 00:49:03,380
more then they came around to the idea

979
00:49:10,060 --> 00:49:07,400
that the Russians had created the mj-12

980
00:49:13,660 --> 00:49:10,070
documents as I said like as a dangling

981
00:49:15,849 --> 00:49:13,670
carrot and saying you give us something

982
00:49:19,030 --> 00:49:15,859
we'll give you something and the fear of

983
00:49:21,940 --> 00:49:19,040
the FBI was that the Russians would get

984
00:49:24,599 --> 00:49:21,950
some really good legitimate stuff from

985
00:49:27,250 --> 00:49:24,609
the people in America who they turned

986
00:49:31,750 --> 00:49:27,260
whereas in return they just get these

987
00:49:36,250 --> 00:49:31,760
bogus mj-12 documents and so you know

988
00:49:40,329 --> 00:49:36,260
again we're seeing a picture of mj-12

989
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:40,339
that largely has not been shown or

990
00:49:45,700 --> 00:49:42,770
demonstrated before everybody's either

991
00:49:48,099 --> 00:49:45,710
said these documents are bogus they're

992
00:49:50,740 --> 00:49:48,109
just hoaxes by you know some guys got

993
00:49:53,230 --> 00:49:50,750
nothing else to do with his time or

994
00:49:54,940 --> 00:49:53,240
they're the real thing nobody up until

995
00:49:59,349 --> 00:49:54,950
now has really given much thought to the

996
00:50:02,820 --> 00:49:59,359
idea that the Russians the KGB actually

997
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:02,830
created these documents as a means to

998
00:50:12,220 --> 00:50:06,530
secure a highly classified material from

999
00:50:13,930 --> 00:50:12,230
US intelligence where would the we'll

1000
00:50:17,829 --> 00:50:13,940
pick this up right after the break

1001
00:50:21,220 --> 00:50:17,839
but the into the intricacies of the

1002
00:50:23,079 --> 00:50:21,230
mj-12 documents the research that was

1003
00:50:25,750 --> 00:50:23,089
put in behind them the names the places

1004
00:50:27,940 --> 00:50:25,760
the dates that's a pretty difficult

1005
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:27,950
thing I've always thought to put

1006
00:50:32,530 --> 00:50:30,050
together but I do believe that they're

1007
00:50:36,069 --> 00:50:32,540
fake you know they're hoax documents but

1008
00:50:40,390 --> 00:50:36,079
it had to have come from somebody

1009
00:50:44,169 --> 00:50:40,400
in the know so would a state actor like

1010
00:50:46,359 --> 00:50:44,179
Moscow have all of the information to

1011
00:50:48,459 --> 00:50:46,369
make sure that their Ducks are in a row

1012
00:50:51,999 --> 00:50:48,469
so that the documents are blown out

1013
00:50:54,910 --> 00:50:52,009
immediately as being bogus because of a

1014
00:50:57,339 --> 00:50:54,920
bunch of general mistakes does Russia

1015
00:50:59,169 --> 00:50:57,349
have that kind of knowledge on the dates

1016
00:51:03,279 --> 00:50:59,179
and places and names of the

1017
00:51:05,650 --> 00:51:03,289
infrastructure here oh yeah I mean that

1018
00:51:09,039 --> 00:51:05,660
there's no doubt about that at all you

1019
00:51:11,140 --> 00:51:09,049
know I mean it's like for example I mean

1020
00:51:13,449 --> 00:51:11,150
so slightly different subjects but I

1021
00:51:16,749 --> 00:51:13,459
mean you know the Russians have spy

1022
00:51:20,439 --> 00:51:16,759
satellites circling the globe 24/7 they

1023
00:51:22,900 --> 00:51:20,449
know exactly where our missile silos are

1024
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:22,910
you know and nuclear missiles and vice

1025
00:51:26,679 --> 00:51:24,890
versa you know we know where all of

1026
00:51:29,650 --> 00:51:26,689
theirs are and the reason we know is

1027
00:51:31,779 --> 00:51:29,660
because if those silos are ever open you

1028
00:51:33,729 --> 00:51:31,789
know and somebody decides to launch all

1029
00:51:38,849 --> 00:51:33,739
that those Sciences excuse me those

1030
00:51:41,919 --> 00:51:38,859
satellites can actually detect the heat

1031
00:51:45,819 --> 00:51:41,929
sensor as the missiles are getting

1032
00:51:47,199 --> 00:51:45,829
primed for liftoff right that's why one

1033
00:51:50,019 --> 00:51:47,209
of the good reasons why we haven't had a

1034
00:51:51,939 --> 00:51:50,029
nuclear war because both sides know

1035
00:51:54,370 --> 00:51:51,949
exactly when the other side is getting

1036
00:51:56,349 --> 00:51:54,380
ready to to launch so that's what you

1037
00:51:59,589 --> 00:51:56,359
know what we we're still here and we're

1038
00:52:03,640 --> 00:51:59,599
not sort of Freud he'd know so you know

1039
00:52:06,569 --> 00:52:03,650
both sides have intricate and deep data

1040
00:52:09,999 --> 00:52:06,579
on you know what the other side is doing

1041
00:52:13,539 --> 00:52:10,009
but sometimes you know the the reality

1042
00:52:16,390 --> 00:52:13,549
is actually a fictional and a created

1043
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:16,400
reality and I think that's what we've

1044
00:52:23,469 --> 00:52:19,249
seen in a lot of these sort of Russian

1045
00:52:27,819 --> 00:52:23,479
operations you know creating bizarre

1046
00:52:33,009 --> 00:52:27,829
hoaxed issues and phenomena as a means

1047
00:52:34,419 --> 00:52:33,019
to gain something in return and in most

1048
00:52:37,150 --> 00:52:34,429
of these cases I talked about in the

1049
00:52:40,179 --> 00:52:37,160
book they began in return was

1050
00:52:43,660 --> 00:52:40,189
intelligence data buy from people who

1051
00:52:46,419 --> 00:52:43,670
just could not you know walk away and

1052
00:52:48,339 --> 00:52:46,429
had to sort of hand something over just

1053
00:52:49,810 --> 00:52:48,349
so they could get you know these mj-12

1054
00:52:52,750 --> 00:52:49,820
documents in return

1055
00:52:54,670 --> 00:52:52,760
it's certainly an interesting twist in

1056
00:52:56,410 --> 00:52:54,680
all of this Nick and we'll continue this

1057
00:52:59,110 --> 00:52:56,420
when we come back after this break

1058
00:53:01,420 --> 00:52:59,120
Nick Redfern our guest talking about his

1059
00:53:02,740 --> 00:53:01,430
new book flying saucers from the Kremlin

1060
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:02,750
we'll be right back up to this short

1061
00:53:08,260 --> 00:53:03,170
break

1062
00:53:45,910 --> 00:53:42,940
[Music]

1063
00:53:47,930 --> 00:53:45,920
[Applause]

1064
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:47,940
welcome back fade to black I'm here

1065
00:53:51,650 --> 00:53:49,290
Jimmy Church so I guess tonight Nick

1066
00:53:54,500 --> 00:53:51,660
Redfern it's got two new books out and

1067
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:54,510
one of them is called the alien book a

1068
00:53:58,490 --> 00:53:56,490
guide to extraterrestrial beings on

1069
00:54:01,340 --> 00:53:58,500
earth we'll get to that at the top of

1070
00:54:03,890 --> 00:54:01,350
the hour talking about his other book

1071
00:54:07,460 --> 00:54:03,900
just released flying saucers from the

1072
00:54:10,150 --> 00:54:07,470
Kremlin and Nick's website which is Nick

1073
00:54:12,740 --> 00:54:10,160
Nick Redford 40 and dot blog spot.com

1074
00:54:15,350 --> 00:54:12,750
it's easy to get to just click on the

1075
00:54:18,140 --> 00:54:15,360
links over at a Jimmy Church radio now

1076
00:54:20,510 --> 00:54:18,150
Nick okay let's let's flip this around a

1077
00:54:24,410 --> 00:54:20,520
little bit on these mj-12 documents I

1078
00:54:26,900 --> 00:54:24,420
just brought up it seems to me that a

1079
00:54:28,460 --> 00:54:26,910
state actor would have to be involved in

1080
00:54:31,490 --> 00:54:28,470
creating these documents I've never

1081
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:31,500
considered some somebody just creating

1082
00:54:36,710 --> 00:54:33,330
them for fun too much work and too

1083
00:54:39,890 --> 00:54:36,720
detailed to fooled a lot of people I've

1084
00:54:43,820 --> 00:54:39,900
always considered their source being

1085
00:54:47,660 --> 00:54:43,830
perc 'ln air force base right there Dodi

1086
00:54:49,730 --> 00:54:47,670
and the crew they were they were gifted

1087
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:49,740
at creating fake documents and

1088
00:54:55,190 --> 00:54:52,290
distributing those and that's where I

1089
00:54:58,400 --> 00:54:55,200
think the source has always been that

1090
00:55:01,820 --> 00:54:58,410
being said a state actor like Moscow

1091
00:55:05,570 --> 00:55:01,830
also would have the ability to create

1092
00:55:08,270 --> 00:55:05,580
such detailed documents and that is an

1093
00:55:12,109 --> 00:55:08,280
interesting take so if we go with that

1094
00:55:17,810 --> 00:55:12,119
for a second do you think that Shandor a

1095
00:55:23,330 --> 00:55:17,820
and Bill Moore if they did source out of

1096
00:55:27,620 --> 00:55:23,340
Moscow that they knew no I actually

1097
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:27,630
don't I think they were innocent parties

1098
00:55:32,720 --> 00:55:30,210
in this who got involved purely and

1099
00:55:34,820 --> 00:55:32,730
simply because they were you know

1100
00:55:37,820 --> 00:55:34,830
getting really close and closer and

1101
00:55:40,820 --> 00:55:37,830
closer to to this you know the Roswell

1102
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:40,830
story because what happened was you know

1103
00:55:46,490 --> 00:55:43,050
the Roswell incident that Bill Moore

1104
00:55:48,380 --> 00:55:46,500
co-wrote was published in 1980 you know

1105
00:55:50,210 --> 00:55:48,390
and I can tell you having written you

1106
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:50,220
know a lot of books myself when I have a

1107
00:55:56,090 --> 00:55:54,090
book out within weeks afterwards you

1108
00:55:57,650 --> 00:55:56,100
know people contact me and said I read

1109
00:55:58,030 --> 00:55:57,660
the book you know and I know something

1110
00:56:00,760 --> 00:55:58,040
about

1111
00:56:02,110 --> 00:56:00,770
story and I think you know that that's

1112
00:56:04,780 --> 00:56:02,120
basically what happened

1113
00:56:07,210 --> 00:56:04,790
with more and Berlitz and they're more

1114
00:56:09,550 --> 00:56:07,220
in shandur a and then with Stan Friedman

1115
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:09,560
as well but the more you write about

1116
00:56:14,620 --> 00:56:12,410
this and the radio shows and TV people

1117
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:14,630
contact you more and more so I think I

1118
00:56:22,090 --> 00:56:18,050
think Bill Moore and Shonda and Stan

1119
00:56:23,980 --> 00:56:22,100
with totally innocent in all this when

1120
00:56:27,700 --> 00:56:23,990
they were fed these highly classified

1121
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:27,710
and highly controversial documents on

1122
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:31,010
dead aliens crashed UFOs and so on but

1123
00:56:35,620 --> 00:56:32,810
yeah I mean you're right I mean there's

1124
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:35,630
no doubt but you know Kirtland Air Force

1125
00:56:41,860 --> 00:56:38,570
Base does seem to play a significant

1126
00:56:43,930 --> 00:56:41,870
role in all of this but I mean I think

1127
00:56:46,890 --> 00:56:43,940
one of the things to keep in mind or the

1128
00:56:50,860 --> 00:56:46,900
possibilities to keep in mind is that

1129
00:56:53,110 --> 00:56:50,870
it's entirely possible you know that US

1130
00:56:55,390 --> 00:56:53,120
intelligence was aware of what Russian

1131
00:56:59,500 --> 00:56:55,400
intelligence was doing maybe they even

1132
00:57:01,870 --> 00:56:59,510
created their own mj-12 documents to

1133
00:57:05,050 --> 00:57:01,880
really complement complicate things so

1134
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:05,060
you know I think when you start looking

1135
00:57:11,620 --> 00:57:08,330
into you know these people are really

1136
00:57:15,310 --> 00:57:11,630
skilled at creating fake documents and

1137
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:15,320
fake scenarios and seeding them into

1138
00:57:20,650 --> 00:57:17,690
this community or that community it

1139
00:57:23,290 --> 00:57:20,660
becomes extremely difficult to know who

1140
00:57:25,930 --> 00:57:23,300
is actually pulling the strings in which

1141
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:25,940
side is that you know or both sides

1142
00:57:31,270 --> 00:57:28,610
trying to do it to try and complicate

1143
00:57:33,550 --> 00:57:31,280
things even more you know you know who I

1144
00:57:36,210 --> 00:57:33,560
feel bad for this if they did source out

1145
00:57:40,570 --> 00:57:36,220
of the Kremlin you know I feel bad for

1146
00:57:44,350 --> 00:57:40,580
Richard Doty Richard Doty because you

1147
00:57:46,300 --> 00:57:44,360
know Doty and his ego he probably looked

1148
00:57:51,130 --> 00:57:46,310
at those that goes oh hold on a minute

1149
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:51,140
hold on I didn't do these somebody is

1150
00:57:58,840 --> 00:57:56,570
coming into my gain here do you if they

1151
00:58:04,120 --> 00:57:58,850
did source out of the Kremlin do you

1152
00:58:06,820 --> 00:58:04,130
think Doty was aware of it well I don't

1153
00:58:09,130 --> 00:58:06,830
know you know I can't say if he knew or

1154
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:09,140
not but what I can say with 100%

1155
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:11,810
certainty is that the FBI

1156
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:15,890
I actually was genuinely concerned that

1157
00:58:21,700 --> 00:58:18,290
the Russians had created the mj-12

1158
00:58:23,530 --> 00:58:21,710
documents now the amount of documents of

1159
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:23,540
the that have surfaced through the

1160
00:58:28,450 --> 00:58:25,450
Freedom Information Act on this issue

1161
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:28,460
he's a handful it's about 40 or 50 pages

1162
00:58:36,820 --> 00:58:33,410
and portions of bill Moore's FBI file

1163
00:58:39,790 --> 00:58:36,830
have been released as well and what we

1164
00:58:42,190 --> 00:58:39,800
know from the FBI's investigation of the

1165
00:58:45,820 --> 00:58:42,200
documents themselves specifically is

1166
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:45,830
that that was one of the the primary

1167
00:58:52,450 --> 00:58:49,490
theories they had that the the Russians

1168
00:58:55,330 --> 00:58:52,460
had created these documents solely as a

1169
00:58:58,690 --> 00:58:55,340
means to reel in people who were working

1170
00:59:00,280 --> 00:58:58,700
on these classified programs and you

1171
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:00,290
give us something we'll give you

1172
00:59:05,770 --> 00:59:03,290
something and and I mean that scenario

1173
00:59:08,860 --> 00:59:05,780
makes common sense if you look at it

1174
00:59:10,990 --> 00:59:08,870
from the perspective of the fact that US

1175
00:59:14,620 --> 00:59:11,000
intelligence was worried at that time

1176
00:59:16,620 --> 00:59:14,630
that there were people in the aviation

1177
00:59:20,650 --> 00:59:16,630
industry and the intelligence community

1178
00:59:25,270 --> 00:59:20,660
who may have been open to the idea of

1179
00:59:29,410 --> 00:59:25,280
doing a deal with the Russians the the

1180
00:59:31,690 --> 00:59:29,420
other part of this if if these did

1181
00:59:34,030 --> 00:59:31,700
source out of the Kremlin which I think

1182
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:34,040
this should be discussed if these were

1183
00:59:40,990 --> 00:59:37,730
sourced out of the Kremlin what else was

1184
00:59:46,030 --> 00:59:41,000
the Kremlin sending this way and to whom

1185
00:59:48,340 --> 00:59:46,040
and does it continue to this day oh yeah

1186
00:59:51,670 --> 00:59:48,350
I mean there's no doubt about this at

1187
00:59:53,830 --> 00:59:51,680
all you know I mean you can go back in

1188
00:59:57,130 --> 00:59:53,840
time and forward in time I mean just

1189
01:00:00,610 --> 00:59:57,140
sort of give you a classic example from

1190
01:00:03,610 --> 01:00:00,620
the 1960s which revolves around the

1191
01:00:06,460 --> 01:00:03,620
atheria Society novia Theory Society was

1192
01:00:09,270 --> 01:00:06,470
a group created in the UK but which now

1193
01:00:14,890 --> 01:00:09,280
has its headquarters in Los Angeles and

1194
01:00:16,540 --> 01:00:14,900
it's basically an organization that sort

1195
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:16,550
of buys into the whole space for the

1196
01:00:21,370 --> 01:00:19,970
contactee movement now in the late 50s

1197
01:00:24,849 --> 01:00:21,380
and through the 60s the Aetherius

1198
01:00:28,449 --> 01:00:24,859
Society was a very influential and

1199
01:00:29,199 --> 01:00:28,459
organization had a lot of membership to

1200
01:00:32,559 --> 01:00:29,209
it as well

1201
01:00:34,359 --> 01:00:32,569
now there's an organization or an

1202
01:00:36,430 --> 01:00:34,369
intelligence solvent the British police

1203
01:00:39,219 --> 01:00:36,440
force called Special Branch and they get

1204
01:00:41,259 --> 01:00:39,229
involved in terrorist investigations and

1205
01:00:44,410 --> 01:00:41,269
counterintelligence and things like that

1206
01:00:47,170 --> 01:00:44,420
and they opened a file on the atheria

1207
01:00:49,089 --> 01:00:47,180
Society which I got through v terms of

1208
01:00:53,259 --> 01:00:49,099
the UK freedom Freedom of Information

1209
01:00:56,410 --> 01:00:53,269
Act and the Special Branch of watching

1210
01:00:59,170 --> 01:00:56,420
them because the Aetherius Society was

1211
01:01:01,870 --> 01:00:59,180
very vocal on the fact that they felt

1212
01:01:04,870 --> 01:01:01,880
that the UK needed to get rid of all its

1213
01:01:07,180 --> 01:01:04,880
atomic weapons and part of the reason

1214
01:01:10,089 --> 01:01:07,190
was because the aliens have told them to

1215
01:01:11,859 --> 01:01:10,099
get rid of them and Special Branch was

1216
01:01:14,259 --> 01:01:11,869
very concerned that regardless of

1217
01:01:19,839 --> 01:01:14,269
whether or not the Aetherius society

1218
01:01:22,390 --> 01:01:19,849
were legitimate or or not the Special

1219
01:01:25,420 --> 01:01:22,400
Branch was concerned that the Russians

1220
01:01:29,380 --> 01:01:25,430
might have been using their me almost

1221
01:01:33,130 --> 01:01:29,390
like a puppet type situation and getting

1222
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:33,140
these via theory society to we put more

1223
01:01:38,469 --> 01:01:36,170
interest in the UK for getting rid of

1224
01:01:42,699 --> 01:01:38,479
nuclear weapons because the alien said

1225
01:01:45,459 --> 01:01:42,709
so and so Special Branch came again like

1226
01:01:48,130 --> 01:01:45,469
with the FBI in the u.s. came to suspect

1227
01:01:52,180 --> 01:01:48,140
that the atheria Society was possibly

1228
01:01:58,420 --> 01:01:52,190
being dictated by and used by Russian

1229
01:02:00,999 --> 01:01:58,430
intelligence as a way to allow us allow

1230
01:02:03,249 --> 01:02:01,009
the English people if you like to decide

1231
01:02:06,069 --> 01:02:03,259
yes we want the nukes gone we don't want

1232
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:06,079
any part of them and when you put all

1233
01:02:13,479 --> 01:02:09,410
that picture together what you see is

1234
01:02:17,319 --> 01:02:13,489
again manipulation by the Russians using

1235
01:02:22,269 --> 01:02:17,329
atomic weapons as a tool of fear and to

1236
01:02:24,819 --> 01:02:22,279
try and find ways to encourage the

1237
01:02:28,689 --> 01:02:24,829
British people to get rid of their nukes

1238
01:02:31,749 --> 01:02:28,699
and do it under the banner of something

1239
01:02:33,699 --> 01:02:31,759
like the Aetherius society where more

1240
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:33,709
and more people might think well you

1241
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:35,930
know this groups talking some sense and

1242
01:02:41,780 --> 01:02:38,370
so again it was very similar to

1243
01:02:44,420 --> 01:02:41,790
the Adamski situation and the FBI and

1244
01:02:46,220 --> 01:02:44,430
and he also demonstrates how you know

1245
01:02:48,650 --> 01:02:46,230
expand the globe it wasn't just in the

1246
01:02:52,310 --> 01:02:48,660
US and the Russians doing it was Europe

1247
01:02:55,010 --> 01:02:52,320
the UK and Australia as well I used to

1248
01:02:58,990 --> 01:02:55,020
live Terp on this Nick I used to live a

1249
01:03:02,090 --> 01:02:59,000
couple of blocks away from atheria and

1250
01:03:03,980 --> 01:03:02,100
years ago I was a kid all right I was a

1251
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:03,990
kid I was in my 20s and I'm with

1252
01:03:09,050 --> 01:03:07,290
somebody we're going down like fountain

1253
01:03:12,140 --> 01:03:09,060
you know one of the streets in Hollywood

1254
01:03:14,780 --> 01:03:12,150
and my friend points out hey man that's

1255
01:03:17,300 --> 01:03:14,790
the UFO group right there and he points

1256
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:17,310
at the house and it was just a trippy

1257
01:03:24,350 --> 01:03:19,770
look in place and I

1258
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:24,360
I never I never once took my eyes off of

1259
01:03:27,620 --> 01:03:26,490
it when I drove up I can't remember the

1260
01:03:30,050 --> 01:03:27,630
street that it was honest like El

1261
01:03:32,570 --> 01:03:30,060
Central or something and fountain and

1262
01:03:34,190 --> 01:03:32,580
and would look at it and would look for

1263
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:34,200
people walking around outside and you

1264
01:03:39,410 --> 01:03:36,210
would see him from time to time but that

1265
01:03:41,180 --> 01:03:39,420
was a huge organization at one point I

1266
01:03:43,310 --> 01:03:41,190
don't know what the membership is today

1267
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:43,320
but they were very influential for a

1268
01:03:49,220 --> 01:03:47,130
long time yeah they were and the the

1269
01:03:53,420 --> 01:03:49,230
file that I got from Special Branch in

1270
01:03:56,270 --> 01:03:53,430
the UK runs to about 75 pages and it

1271
01:03:58,190 --> 01:03:56,280
shows how Special Branch would sit in

1272
01:04:01,880 --> 01:03:58,200
the audience and some of the lectures

1273
01:04:03,980 --> 01:04:01,890
that the theory society put on and they

1274
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:03,990
put a number of anti-nuclear

1275
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:07,530
demonstrations on in Trafalgar Square in

1276
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:09,930
London England and again Special Branch

1277
01:04:15,890 --> 01:04:12,650
had its agents seated in the audience

1278
01:04:18,110 --> 01:04:15,900
just listening as to how you know the

1279
01:04:20,450 --> 01:04:18,120
ethereal Society was saying you know

1280
01:04:24,140 --> 01:04:20,460
let's get rid of our nukes and and again

1281
01:04:27,530 --> 01:04:24,150
it was sort of behind the banner of UFOs

1282
01:04:31,190 --> 01:04:27,540
and and it's a fascinating but also

1283
01:04:34,130 --> 01:04:31,200
weird piece of Cold War history you know

1284
01:04:36,620 --> 01:04:34,140
when you see that the Russians may have

1285
01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:36,630
been trying to influence the British

1286
01:04:45,740 --> 01:04:41,370
public to get rid of their nukes but

1287
01:04:48,050 --> 01:04:45,750
doing so using UFOs and aliens so you

1288
01:04:50,390 --> 01:04:48,060
know as the whole scenario the whole

1289
01:04:51,630 --> 01:04:50,400
saga of that period from the late

1290
01:04:53,940 --> 01:04:51,640
forties

1291
01:04:56,730 --> 01:04:53,950
the present-day still you know he's a

1292
01:04:59,760 --> 01:04:56,740
very odd and weird one and it's kind of

1293
01:05:02,460 --> 01:04:59,770
one of those to look too good to be true

1294
01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:02,470
stories but ironically it actually

1295
01:05:05,820 --> 01:05:03,730
really is true

1296
01:05:07,350 --> 01:05:05,830
well okay and you mentioned earlier

1297
01:05:10,980 --> 01:05:07,360
about you know people that reach out

1298
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:10,990
after they read the book has anybody cut

1299
01:05:18,990 --> 01:05:16,170
what is the reaction been to this mj-12

1300
01:05:21,090 --> 01:05:19,000
idea I don't want to say theory because

1301
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:21,100
I think it's as concrete as anything

1302
01:05:26,630 --> 01:05:23,170
has anybody reached out to you about

1303
01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:26,640
that saying hey I know something here

1304
01:05:31,860 --> 01:05:29,850
well not exactly on the mj-12 documents

1305
01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:31,870
but I've got one really interesting

1306
01:05:35,790 --> 01:05:34,330
story which you know he won't her to

1307
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:35,800
sort of mention it because it may bring

1308
01:05:40,980 --> 01:05:37,810
other people in who knows something

1309
01:05:43,260 --> 01:05:40,990
about it but I actually got a story from

1310
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:43,270
a woman who who said her grandfather

1311
01:05:50,280 --> 01:05:45,610
kind of did something the other way

1312
01:05:53,910 --> 01:05:50,290
around which was basically feeding data

1313
01:05:57,060 --> 01:05:53,920
and fake documentation to the Russians

1314
01:06:00,240 --> 01:05:57,070
as a means to try and destabilize the

1315
01:06:02,190 --> 01:06:00,250
Russians by doing exactly the the mirror

1316
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:02,200
image opposite of what the Russians were

1317
01:06:08,250 --> 01:06:05,290
doing this guy reportedly worked for the

1318
01:06:12,660 --> 01:06:08,260
Defense Intelligence Agency and his job

1319
01:06:15,930 --> 01:06:12,670
was to fabricate documents that would

1320
01:06:17,610 --> 01:06:15,940
had the Russians going on like running

1321
01:06:21,510 --> 01:06:17,620
around like headless chickens you know

1322
01:06:23,610 --> 01:06:21,520
chasing down fabricated stories and she

1323
01:06:26,100 --> 01:06:23,620
said that she knew for sure there are at

1324
01:06:30,180 --> 01:06:26,110
least three or four occasions he had

1325
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:30,190
been tasked with creating fabricated UFO

1326
01:06:35,910 --> 01:06:33,370
documents so you know this demonstrates

1327
01:06:38,250 --> 01:06:35,920
another aspect where it wasn't just the

1328
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:38,260
Russians doing it to us you know we were

1329
01:06:41,970 --> 01:06:40,690
trying to manipulate the Russians as

1330
01:06:44,100 --> 01:06:41,980
well which is you know you could

1331
01:06:46,230 --> 01:06:44,110
perfectly understandable because this

1332
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:46,240
was the height of the Cold War when the

1333
01:06:50,940 --> 01:06:48,970
Russians had nuclear missiles

1334
01:06:54,110 --> 01:06:50,950
you know pointed right at us as they do

1335
01:06:56,970 --> 01:06:54,120
right now so you know I often get little

1336
01:06:59,700 --> 01:06:56,980
bits of data like this or people who

1337
01:07:01,320 --> 01:06:59,710
want to share stories who you know read

1338
01:07:03,810 --> 01:07:01,330
the books or heard me on a radio show

1339
01:07:05,550 --> 01:07:03,820
and I'm encouraged and when people do

1340
01:07:08,460 --> 01:07:05,560
come forward because it's

1341
01:07:11,250 --> 01:07:08,470
sort of further legitimizes the stories

1342
01:07:16,140 --> 01:07:11,260
and and adds to that the body of data

1343
01:07:19,650 --> 01:07:16,150
that we've got well and the Washington

1344
01:07:22,110 --> 01:07:19,660
was okay with UFO reports here in the

1345
01:07:25,470 --> 01:07:22,120
United States because if it was secret

1346
01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:25,480
aircraft or missile tests or anything

1347
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:29,650
that was a black type project then you

1348
01:07:34,500 --> 01:07:31,690
could throw you a follow on it and the

1349
01:07:38,460 --> 01:07:34,510
and the Russians would be you know sent

1350
01:07:41,270 --> 01:07:38,470
off of the sent if you will would the

1351
01:07:45,480 --> 01:07:41,280
same thing have been going on in Russia

1352
01:07:47,550 --> 01:07:45,490
right if if the you if the reports were

1353
01:07:50,460 --> 01:07:47,560
UFOs in Russia then it would throw us

1354
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:50,470
off of the trail of the technology that

1355
01:07:56,970 --> 01:07:53,490
they would have been working on right

1356
01:07:59,810 --> 01:07:56,980
well yeah this is where things get sort

1357
01:08:02,460 --> 01:07:59,820
of really complicated where you know

1358
01:08:04,610 --> 01:08:02,470
which door is a real you know whose

1359
01:08:08,730 --> 01:08:04,620
versions whose documents are real

1360
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:08,740
Hosemann material is fabricated and you

1361
01:08:14,100 --> 01:08:10,570
know who's doing this and why are they

1362
01:08:16,530 --> 01:08:14,110
doing it but I mean one interesting

1363
01:08:21,150 --> 01:08:16,540
aside is that was he related to Russia

1364
01:08:24,390 --> 01:08:21,160
and the United States is that I'm sure

1365
01:08:27,480 --> 01:08:24,400
most of you listeners have heard of the

1366
01:08:30,420 --> 01:08:27,490
story of serpo and the serpo documents

1367
01:08:32,130 --> 01:08:30,430
surfaced a number of years ago yeah well

1368
01:08:34,230 --> 01:08:32,140
when I was doing the research and I've

1369
01:08:37,770 --> 01:08:34,240
got an entire section in the book on

1370
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:37,780
this but one figure came forward guy

1371
01:08:43,410 --> 01:08:40,930
came forward stating that the documents

1372
01:08:48,390 --> 01:08:43,420
were real in the sense that they were

1373
01:08:50,820 --> 01:08:48,400
created by government agents but he said

1374
01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:50,830
that they weren't real and he said

1375
01:08:57,390 --> 01:08:53,650
basically they were designed again to

1376
01:08:58,980 --> 01:08:57,400
try and make the Russians think that we

1377
01:09:01,500 --> 01:08:58,990
had had some sort of like an alien

1378
01:09:04,890 --> 01:09:01,510
liaison we'd had close encounters with

1379
01:09:07,410 --> 01:09:04,900
aliens and possibly we even had alien

1380
01:09:10,710 --> 01:09:07,420
technology now this particular source

1381
01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:10,720
said the documents were not real in the

1382
01:09:15,090 --> 01:09:12,730
sense that they were you know official

1383
01:09:17,340 --> 01:09:15,100
documents but they were created by

1384
01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:17,350
people in government's and the source

1385
01:09:21,990 --> 01:09:19,330
said that the

1386
01:09:25,290 --> 01:09:22,000
who wrote these documents was a woman

1387
01:09:27,540 --> 01:09:25,300
named Alice Bradley Sheldon now if you

1388
01:09:29,820 --> 01:09:27,550
look up Alice Bradley Sheldon you'll

1389
01:09:34,740 --> 01:09:29,830
find some interesting information she

1390
01:09:38,100 --> 01:09:34,750
was actually a CIA intelligence officer

1391
01:09:40,380 --> 01:09:38,110
in the 1950s and she was also someone

1392
01:09:43,110 --> 01:09:40,390
who wrote science fiction alien based

1393
01:09:46,770 --> 01:09:43,120
science fiction under the alias of a

1394
01:09:50,460 --> 01:09:46,780
man's name James Tiptree and Alex

1395
01:09:53,700 --> 01:09:50,470
Bradley Sheldon would arguably have been

1396
01:09:55,470 --> 01:09:53,710
the perfect person to create fabricated

1397
01:09:57,870 --> 01:09:55,480
documents aimed at the Russians because

1398
01:10:00,510 --> 01:09:57,880
as I said she was a CIA intelligence

1399
01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:00,520
officer and she wrote extraterrestrial

1400
01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:03,850
based sci-fi novels so you know that you

1401
01:10:10,440 --> 01:10:06,370
put those two aspects together UFOs a

1402
01:10:13,590 --> 01:10:10,450
skilled author and you know the CIA and

1403
01:10:16,650 --> 01:10:13,600
fabricated documents that I think he's

1404
01:10:18,330 --> 01:10:16,660
an interesting angle that needs pursuing

1405
01:10:21,060 --> 01:10:18,340
further I've gone about as far as I can

1406
01:10:23,700 --> 01:10:21,070
and that's why I put it in the book in

1407
01:10:25,590 --> 01:10:23,710
the hope that you know other people will

1408
01:10:28,280 --> 01:10:25,600
be able to add to it you may know

1409
01:10:32,010 --> 01:10:28,290
something about it but again you know if

1410
01:10:34,650 --> 01:10:32,020
mj-12 the documents and the serpo

1411
01:10:37,290 --> 01:10:34,660
documents can have been shown to have

1412
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:37,300
been fabricated that of course begs the

1413
01:10:43,910 --> 01:10:40,810
question well how many of these lists so

1414
01:10:46,980 --> 01:10:43,920
called leaked documents have also been

1415
01:10:49,980 --> 01:10:46,990
created by counterintelligence people

1416
01:10:52,440 --> 01:10:49,990
disinformation experts you know it makes

1417
01:10:54,930 --> 01:10:52,450
you wonder or all of these leaked

1418
01:10:57,570 --> 01:10:54,940
documents you know they not the real

1419
01:11:00,960 --> 01:10:57,580
deal you know there's something designed

1420
01:11:05,490 --> 01:11:00,970
to push us down different avenues and so

1421
01:11:08,640 --> 01:11:05,500
on you know it clearly opens up you know

1422
01:11:12,270 --> 01:11:08,650
a lot of questions that took place much

1423
01:11:14,250 --> 01:11:12,280
of ufology in a way or in an angle if

1424
01:11:17,010 --> 01:11:14,260
you like very different to what was

1425
01:11:20,220 --> 01:11:17,020
perceived in the 80s and 90s not to get

1426
01:11:22,050 --> 01:11:20,230
off of the your book but staying on

1427
01:11:27,840 --> 01:11:22,060
serpo because i'm glad you brought that

1428
01:11:30,590 --> 01:11:27,850
up I I spent I think at one point Nick I

1429
01:11:33,860 --> 01:11:30,600
had read every single war

1430
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:33,870
bird of the serpo documents which took

1431
01:11:43,940 --> 01:11:38,610
me months okay that was a very complex

1432
01:11:48,010 --> 01:11:43,950
deep massive project and I had always

1433
01:11:51,530 --> 01:11:48,020
thought from the beginning that this was

1434
01:11:54,140 --> 01:11:51,540
government whether it was a real story

1435
01:11:57,410 --> 01:11:54,150
I hate whether the exchange program and

1436
01:12:03,190 --> 01:11:57,420
the Jeep's and whatever that part of it

1437
01:12:08,090 --> 01:12:03,200
but that it was too complex too deep too

1438
01:12:09,590 --> 01:12:08,100
technical and and when I say complex I

1439
01:12:15,470 --> 01:12:09,600
don't think there's anything out there

1440
01:12:19,400 --> 01:12:15,480
like serpo right i it was and I've

1441
01:12:22,580 --> 01:12:19,410
always felt that it was CIA and I think

1442
01:12:25,160 --> 01:12:22,590
today I think we're pretty solid on that

1443
01:12:28,310 --> 01:12:25,170
that serpo may have been just come a

1444
01:12:31,730 --> 01:12:28,320
complete CIA Mockingbird type of

1445
01:12:34,010 --> 01:12:31,740
operation what do you think oh yeah I

1446
01:12:35,720 --> 01:12:34,020
mean I don't dispute that at all I mean

1447
01:12:38,060 --> 01:12:35,730
that's actually the scenario pretty much

1448
01:12:41,090 --> 01:12:38,070
that I talk about in the book that the

1449
01:12:44,060 --> 01:12:41,100
serpo documents were created by US

1450
01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:44,070
intelligence and written by Alice

1451
01:12:50,720 --> 01:12:46,890
Bradley Sheldon work for the CIA sci-fi

1452
01:12:53,330 --> 01:12:50,730
author and as someone who had the time

1453
01:12:57,470 --> 01:12:53,340
because it was her job you know to put

1454
01:12:59,990 --> 01:12:57,480
together all of these documents and then

1455
01:13:03,140 --> 01:13:00,000
have someone like a courier hand them

1456
01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:03,150
over to somebody Moscow and then Moscow

1457
01:13:09,550 --> 01:13:06,690
things oh my god you know the US has got

1458
01:13:13,220 --> 01:13:09,560
their hands on highly classified and

1459
01:13:15,650 --> 01:13:13,230
highly advanced alien technology they've

1460
01:13:17,810 --> 01:13:15,660
even met aliens and I think that was

1461
01:13:19,220 --> 01:13:17,820
probably the goal you know you have a

1462
01:13:22,790 --> 01:13:19,230
bunch of people sitting around in the

1463
01:13:26,810 --> 01:13:22,800
Kremlin panicking that you know the US

1464
01:13:29,030 --> 01:13:26,820
has got alien technology and so on but

1465
01:13:31,700 --> 01:13:29,040
what a some of these kind of interesting

1466
01:13:35,270 --> 01:13:31,710
and a little bit weird as well is that

1467
01:13:38,150 --> 01:13:35,280
the the mj-12 documents that famous

1468
01:13:40,820 --> 01:13:38,160
batch of about eight pages you know with

1469
01:13:44,630 --> 01:13:40,830
the with the truman signature on that

1470
01:13:48,980 --> 01:13:44,640
bill more Stan Freeman and Jamie Chandra

1471
01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:48,990
well they were first publicly made

1472
01:13:55,610 --> 01:13:51,930
available on in the newspapers and books

1473
01:13:58,070 --> 01:13:55,620
and so on in May 1987 the in terms of

1474
01:14:01,060 --> 01:13:58,080
books they the first reference was in

1475
01:14:04,450 --> 01:14:01,070
Tim Goods may 1987 book above top secret

1476
01:14:07,870 --> 01:14:04,460
now it just so happens in just days

1477
01:14:10,670 --> 01:14:07,880
around when the documents went public

1478
01:14:12,500 --> 01:14:10,680
Alex Bradley Sheldon actually shot her

1479
01:14:15,260 --> 01:14:12,510
husband and killed him and then shot

1480
01:14:17,770 --> 01:14:15,270
herself and killed herself which is kind

1481
01:14:20,630 --> 01:14:17,780
of like a really weird timing you know

1482
01:14:23,720 --> 01:14:20,640
what do you we've got a couple of

1483
01:14:26,600 --> 01:14:23,730
minutes to the break the other people

1484
01:14:29,990 --> 01:14:26,610
that were around serpo like Victor

1485
01:14:36,050 --> 01:14:30,000
Victor Martinez I'll say it out loud

1486
01:14:39,230 --> 01:14:36,060
bill Ryan Dodi for example to as well do

1487
01:14:44,510 --> 01:14:39,240
you think that they were aware you know

1488
01:14:47,390 --> 01:14:44,520
like Victor Martinez that this was not

1489
01:14:50,890 --> 01:14:47,400
what it seems that this could be you

1490
01:14:53,990 --> 01:14:50,900
know a government disinformation program

1491
01:14:56,270 --> 01:14:54,000
well they certainly knew the rumors but

1492
01:14:59,600 --> 01:14:56,280
the reason I personally though I don't

1493
01:15:01,910 --> 01:14:59,610
think they were in a position where they

1494
01:15:04,520 --> 01:15:01,920
thought this was disinformation you know

1495
01:15:07,130 --> 01:15:04,530
fabricated documents and I think one of

1496
01:15:09,500 --> 01:15:07,140
the main reasons why so many people

1497
01:15:11,650 --> 01:15:09,510
bought into it was because of the sheer

1498
01:15:14,510 --> 01:15:11,660
number of pages as you as you well know

1499
01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:14,520
you know put out yourself you know how

1500
01:15:18,440 --> 01:15:15,810
long it took you to read all this

1501
01:15:21,110 --> 01:15:18,450
material you know I think most people

1502
01:15:24,650 --> 01:15:21,120
would take the view with so much

1503
01:15:28,160 --> 01:15:24,660
material on serpo there's just no way

1504
01:15:30,800 --> 01:15:28,170
someone could take the time to fabricate

1505
01:15:33,890 --> 01:15:30,810
it or actually to have the tie him to do

1506
01:15:36,230 --> 01:15:33,900
it you know so but somebody like Alice

1507
01:15:38,870 --> 01:15:36,240
Bradley Sheldon would be the perfect

1508
01:15:41,720 --> 01:15:38,880
person because it wasn't something she'd

1509
01:15:43,220 --> 01:15:41,730
be doing you know hoaxing in a basement

1510
01:15:46,190 --> 01:15:43,230
you know after work

1511
01:15:49,070 --> 01:15:46,200
the her job was you know creating and

1512
01:15:50,960 --> 01:15:49,080
crafting things like this so you know

1513
01:15:52,610 --> 01:15:50,970
when people said well this can't be a

1514
01:15:55,700 --> 01:15:52,620
hoax because there's just so much

1515
01:15:57,510 --> 01:15:55,710
material and no one could fake all this

1516
01:15:59,160 --> 01:15:57,520
well the answer is yes

1517
01:16:01,320 --> 01:15:59,170
somebody actually could do it you know

1518
01:16:05,580 --> 01:16:01,330
if they were working 9:00 to 5:00 Monday

1519
01:16:09,570 --> 01:16:05,590
to Friday in the CIA concocting bogus

1520
01:16:11,610 --> 01:16:09,580
UFO stories to to worry the Soviets

1521
01:16:20,940 --> 01:16:11,620
you know you're breaking hearts right

1522
01:16:23,280 --> 01:16:20,950
now there are I'm I'm yeah I mean I can

1523
01:16:25,830 --> 01:16:23,290
only say it as I see it you know I mean

1524
01:16:28,920 --> 01:16:25,840
I'm someone who he's a full-on believer

1525
01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:28,930
in the UFO phenomenon you know my the

1526
01:16:34,110 --> 01:16:30,610
reason I got involved in interesting

1527
01:16:36,360 --> 01:16:34,120
because my dad was a radar mechanic in

1528
01:16:38,370 --> 01:16:36,370
the Royal Air Force in the UK and he was

1529
01:16:40,530 --> 01:16:38,380
actually involved in several UFO

1530
01:16:43,410 --> 01:16:40,540
incidents and there's no doubt in my

1531
01:16:48,170 --> 01:16:43,420
mind that the UFO phenomenon is real

1532
01:16:50,640 --> 01:16:48,180
100% now whether it's extraterrestrial

1533
01:16:53,550 --> 01:16:50,650
multi-dimensional who knows what they

1534
01:16:56,700 --> 01:16:53,560
are but they they are interacting with

1535
01:16:59,870 --> 01:16:56,710
us and they're real however that hasn't

1536
01:17:03,530 --> 01:16:59,880
stopped intelligence agencies from

1537
01:17:06,930 --> 01:17:03,540
manipulating what is a genuine really

1538
01:17:08,990 --> 01:17:06,940
mystifying phenomenon and so that's

1539
01:17:10,920 --> 01:17:09,000
where things get more and more

1540
01:17:13,350 --> 01:17:10,930
controversial you know you've got the

1541
01:17:15,150 --> 01:17:13,360
real UFO phenomenon then you've got

1542
01:17:18,320 --> 01:17:15,160
people in the intelligence communities

1543
01:17:21,890 --> 01:17:18,330
of the east and west fabricating stories

1544
01:17:25,830 --> 01:17:21,900
based around what may have been real

1545
01:17:28,650 --> 01:17:25,840
actions and activity so you know it's

1546
01:17:31,310 --> 01:17:28,660
the story that I tell in the book is

1547
01:17:35,340 --> 01:17:31,320
very much more sort of like a tale of

1548
01:17:37,560 --> 01:17:35,350
espionage meets UFOs rather than a

1549
01:17:39,840 --> 01:17:37,570
straightforward UFO book and I don't

1550
01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:39,850
think really even though I say so myself

1551
01:17:45,270 --> 01:17:42,010
I don't really think anybody's sort of

1552
01:17:48,630 --> 01:17:45,280
really gone deeply down that path of how

1553
01:17:50,180 --> 01:17:48,640
and why the UFO subject has been the

1554
01:17:52,980 --> 01:17:50,190
tool of disinformation

1555
01:17:56,160 --> 01:17:52,990
counterintelligence psychological

1556
01:17:59,130 --> 01:17:56,170
warfare but but we now have the evidence

1557
01:18:03,420 --> 01:17:59,140
you know that that this phenomenon the

1558
01:18:07,650 --> 01:18:03,430
real phenomenon is being used as a means

1559
01:18:10,290 --> 01:18:07,660
to confuse the the potential enemy so to

1560
01:18:13,740 --> 01:18:10,300
speak yeah I couldn't wait to get

1561
01:18:16,620 --> 01:18:13,750
and and check the Serpa website to see a

1562
01:18:20,520 --> 01:18:16,630
victor posted an update all right I mean

1563
01:18:24,479 --> 01:18:20,530
it was like it consumed me it consumed

1564
01:18:28,560 --> 01:18:24,489
me and and at one point the point yeah

1565
01:18:30,649 --> 01:18:28,570
it consumed me and I felt that it was an

1566
01:18:34,410 --> 01:18:30,659
authentic government source

1567
01:18:37,350 --> 01:18:34,420
disinformation real not real I'd buy

1568
01:18:39,629 --> 01:18:37,360
that part didn't play into it for me but

1569
01:18:41,939 --> 01:18:39,639
I felt that this was real government

1570
01:18:45,060 --> 01:18:41,949
stuff going down I felt it in my bones

1571
01:18:48,720 --> 01:18:45,070
that today I can look back and say I was

1572
01:18:52,229 --> 01:18:48,730
right but that being said at a recent

1573
01:18:54,540 --> 01:18:52,239
UFO conference I'm walking I was with a

1574
01:18:57,930 --> 01:18:54,550
group of people and somebody came up

1575
01:18:59,520 --> 01:18:57,940
behind me and whispered in my ear Nick

1576
01:19:03,030 --> 01:18:59,530
I'm not making this up somebody

1577
01:19:05,819 --> 01:19:03,040
whispered in my ear serpo is real I have

1578
01:19:07,709 --> 01:19:05,829
info right and I turned on the light and

1579
01:19:15,180 --> 01:19:07,719
this person's walking away and I and and

1580
01:19:18,540 --> 01:19:15,190
I didn't care I didn't care people today

1581
01:19:21,569 --> 01:19:18,550
are still believers in the story they

1582
01:19:23,930 --> 01:19:21,579
are they can't let it go they can't well

1583
01:19:27,720 --> 01:19:23,940
I mean when you said you know about

1584
01:19:29,160 --> 01:19:27,730
breaking hearts but well maybe I am but

1585
01:19:31,680 --> 01:19:29,170
that's just the way I look it that's

1586
01:19:34,459 --> 01:19:31,690
just that's just too bad because you

1587
01:19:37,740 --> 01:19:34,469
know I think there's no point just

1588
01:19:40,709 --> 01:19:37,750
upholding cool stories because they're

1589
01:19:43,709 --> 01:19:40,719
cool and exciting you know we have to

1590
01:19:46,649 --> 01:19:43,719
get to the heart of what the phenomenon

1591
01:19:50,459 --> 01:19:46,659
is and who's doing all this manipulation

1592
01:19:52,620 --> 01:19:50,469
and if some cases turn out to be 100%

1593
01:19:55,740 --> 01:19:52,630
genuine as you as we always thought well

1594
01:19:58,220 --> 01:19:55,750
that's great if some of the but on the

1595
01:20:01,530 --> 01:19:58,230
other hand if some of these central

1596
01:20:04,950 --> 01:20:01,540
points if you like in ufology like mj-12

1597
01:20:07,319 --> 01:20:04,960
come crashing down well and we prove

1598
01:20:09,600 --> 01:20:07,329
that you know this was some sort of

1599
01:20:13,049 --> 01:20:09,610
counterintelligence program and not real

1600
01:20:15,030 --> 01:20:13,059
documents then you know that the only

1601
01:20:17,280 --> 01:20:15,040
thing I can say well that that is just

1602
01:20:19,379 --> 01:20:17,290
too bad and people are just going to

1603
01:20:21,240 --> 01:20:19,389
have to deal with it and get on with the

1604
01:20:23,130 --> 01:20:21,250
lies and get on with the UFO research

1605
01:20:28,260 --> 01:20:23,140
and

1606
01:20:30,000 --> 01:20:28,270
live in the past of you know oh I wish

1607
01:20:33,200 --> 01:20:30,010
those documents were real because that's

1608
01:20:37,140 --> 01:20:33,210
sort of a just such a weak pathetic

1609
01:20:39,750 --> 01:20:37,150
approach to take you know we've got to

1610
01:20:43,050 --> 01:20:39,760
focus on getting answers and whatever

1611
01:20:45,420 --> 01:20:43,060
the answers are we should go with them

1612
01:20:47,280 --> 01:20:45,430
if we get the solid answers let's go

1613
01:20:48,960 --> 01:20:47,290
with them even if it's not we want to

1614
01:20:52,280 --> 01:20:48,970
hear and if it is what we want to hear

1615
01:20:54,840 --> 01:20:52,290
well that's perfect Mick Redfern

1616
01:20:57,090 --> 01:20:54,850
bringing his a-game Nick stay right

1617
01:20:59,790 --> 01:20:57,100
there we'll take our break and when we

1618
01:21:01,980 --> 01:20:59,800
come back we'll talk about the alien

1619
01:21:04,770 --> 01:21:01,990
book a guide from extraterrestrial

1620
01:21:06,510 --> 01:21:04,780
beings here on earth I'm Errol Chevy

1621
01:21:10,850 --> 01:21:06,520
Church more of Nick Redfern after this

1622
01:21:23,760 --> 01:21:21,380
[Music]

1623
01:21:28,680 --> 01:21:23,770
welcome back fade to black i'm your host

1624
01:21:30,420 --> 01:21:28,690
jimmy church Nick Redfern is our guest

1625
01:21:33,330 --> 01:21:30,430
talking about his two new books and

1626
01:21:35,910 --> 01:21:33,340
we're gonna switch gears the alien book

1627
01:21:38,700 --> 01:21:35,920
a guide to extra-terrestrial beings here

1628
01:21:41,880 --> 01:21:38,710
on earth or on earth and Nick's check

1629
01:21:43,950 --> 01:21:41,890
this out I got today in the mail some to

1630
01:21:46,050 --> 01:21:43,960
me from David Icke his new book right

1631
01:21:50,630 --> 01:21:46,060
it's called the trigger

1632
01:21:53,550 --> 01:21:50,640
it's about 9/11 have you seen it yet no

1633
01:22:03,450 --> 01:21:53,560
it just got released but are you ready

1634
01:22:07,020 --> 01:22:03,460
are you ready 900 pages a very very very

1635
01:22:09,120 --> 01:22:07,030
small type and I'm looking at I'm so

1636
01:22:12,840 --> 01:22:09,130
intimidated but I got to read it you

1637
01:22:15,150 --> 01:22:12,850
know but 900 it's it's like bigger than

1638
01:22:18,950 --> 01:22:15,160
the King James Bible man of weighs like

1639
01:22:22,140 --> 01:22:18,960
5 pounds I don't know how he does it

1640
01:22:29,640 --> 01:22:22,150
seriously now you write a 900-page book

1641
01:22:33,480 --> 01:22:29,650
this is it it's a lot of trees read and

1642
01:22:36,540 --> 01:22:33,490
this is a second 900-page book this year

1643
01:22:40,110 --> 01:22:36,550
man it's just this is crazy

1644
01:22:42,060 --> 01:22:40,120
ok just wanted to freak you out you know

1645
01:22:43,680 --> 01:22:42,070
what it's like you know you know what

1646
01:22:46,380 --> 01:22:43,690
it's like to write a book it's it's a

1647
01:22:48,750 --> 01:22:46,390
lot of work and a lot of research and to

1648
01:22:58,040 --> 01:22:48,760
crank out 900 pages how'd you like to be

1649
01:23:02,550 --> 01:22:58,050
the editor on this you know all right

1650
01:23:05,370 --> 01:23:02,560
now why hasn't somebody written a guide

1651
01:23:07,680 --> 01:23:05,380
to extraterrestrial beings yet you know

1652
01:23:14,460 --> 01:23:07,690
why you know why hasn't this book been

1653
01:23:18,510 --> 01:23:14,470
done what I would say is you know I mean

1654
01:23:20,190 --> 01:23:18,520
I think it's important as an author that

1655
01:23:23,130 --> 01:23:20,200
you know you you want to be able to give

1656
01:23:25,980 --> 01:23:23,140
the Raiders something new each time and

1657
01:23:29,250 --> 01:23:25,990
you know all together so far I've done

1658
01:23:31,200 --> 01:23:29,260
I think it's 54 or 55 books and it's

1659
01:23:32,750 --> 01:23:31,210
around about at that point anyway even

1660
01:23:35,450 --> 01:23:32,760
I've kind of lost

1661
01:23:38,810 --> 01:23:35,460
a little bit up weathermen is actually

1662
01:23:41,360 --> 01:23:38,820
is but anyway but I always think it's

1663
01:23:43,070 --> 01:23:41,370
important to be able to give you know

1664
01:23:46,070 --> 01:23:43,080
the reader something know whether it's a

1665
01:23:48,260 --> 01:23:46,080
new slant on an old case or you know

1666
01:23:51,500 --> 01:23:48,270
something that's just a totally new

1667
01:23:54,170 --> 01:23:51,510
period you know so I spend a lot of time

1668
01:23:56,060 --> 01:23:54,180
usually trying to figure out what should

1669
01:23:58,370 --> 01:23:56,070
I do is for the next book you know you

1670
01:24:00,410 --> 01:23:58,380
don't just want to go over our ground

1671
01:24:02,000 --> 01:24:00,420
which is why I did the flying sources

1672
01:24:05,990 --> 01:24:02,010
from the Kremlin book because he hadn't

1673
01:24:08,300 --> 01:24:06,000
really been done before and but the the

1674
01:24:10,000 --> 01:24:08,310
other one you're talking about the alien

1675
01:24:12,229 --> 01:24:10,010
book it's just actually just

1676
01:24:14,870 --> 01:24:12,239
coincidental that the two books have

1677
01:24:17,000 --> 01:24:14,880
come out together because once come out

1678
01:24:19,700 --> 01:24:17,010
the the alien books come out from

1679
01:24:22,280 --> 01:24:19,710
visible ink press and the Kremlin book

1680
01:24:27,200 --> 01:24:22,290
has come out from Lisa Hagin books

1681
01:24:29,210 --> 01:24:27,210
Lisa's my agents and the the company

1682
01:24:31,760 --> 01:24:29,220
visible in press that is the alien book

1683
01:24:33,520 --> 01:24:31,770
they all their books are basically the

1684
01:24:37,880 --> 01:24:33,530
same they're like four hundred pages

1685
01:24:41,380 --> 01:24:37,890
which is about my limit four hundred

1686
01:24:44,450 --> 01:24:41,390
pages long about 120 photographs and

1687
01:24:47,300 --> 01:24:44,460
they're typically done in like an A to Z

1688
01:24:50,270 --> 01:24:47,310
style so you can you know you can dive

1689
01:24:52,700 --> 01:24:50,280
in to various portions of the book

1690
01:24:54,350 --> 01:24:52,710
without having to you know think oh my

1691
01:24:57,680 --> 01:24:54,360
god you know I've got to wade through

1692
01:24:59,750 --> 01:24:57,690
400 pages from 1 to 400 you don't have

1693
01:25:02,720 --> 01:24:59,760
to do it you know you can look at a

1694
01:25:05,930 --> 01:25:02,730
chapter or a section on the black-eyed

1695
01:25:08,420 --> 01:25:05,940
children or the reptilians and just you

1696
01:25:11,210 --> 01:25:08,430
know go through it as you like and so I

1697
01:25:13,130 --> 01:25:11,220
spoke to the publishers when they said

1698
01:25:15,440 --> 01:25:13,140
you know have you got any new ideas Nick

1699
01:25:17,540 --> 01:25:15,450
and I said well what about a book that

1700
01:25:19,300 --> 01:25:17,550
kind of looks at all the different types

1701
01:25:24,530 --> 01:25:19,310
of aliens that people have reported

1702
01:25:27,440 --> 01:25:24,540
between 1947 and right now and they like

1703
01:25:29,630 --> 01:25:27,450
the idea of you know not just the greys

1704
01:25:31,340 --> 01:25:29,640
or not just the space brothers or not

1705
01:25:34,750 --> 01:25:31,350
just the reptilians but some really

1706
01:25:39,200 --> 01:25:34,760
weird and obscure cases as well so

1707
01:25:40,460 --> 01:25:39,210
that's basically the the way the book

1708
01:25:43,729 --> 01:25:40,470
came together but it was just

1709
01:25:45,920 --> 01:25:43,739
coincidence that the two books with two

1710
01:25:46,340 --> 01:25:45,930
different publishers decided to put them

1711
01:25:47,870 --> 01:25:46,350
out

1712
01:25:50,950 --> 01:25:47,880
pretty much at the same time as each

1713
01:25:53,960 --> 01:25:50,960
other but you know there was no kind of

1714
01:25:56,060 --> 01:25:53,970
infighting it was just like okay well

1715
01:25:58,880 --> 01:25:56,070
both the books are different so neither

1716
01:26:00,950 --> 01:25:58,890
publisher really cared that much how did

1717
01:26:02,780 --> 01:26:00,960
you how did you compile the research

1718
01:26:05,030 --> 01:26:02,790
because you just stated the obvious

1719
01:26:07,670 --> 01:26:05,040
right we have grays and Nordics and

1720
01:26:10,010 --> 01:26:07,680
mantis beings and and reptilians

1721
01:26:13,400 --> 01:26:10,020
there's subgroups for each one of those

1722
01:26:16,010 --> 01:26:13,410
two as well but then there's everything

1723
01:26:22,790 --> 01:26:16,020
else how did you how did you base your

1724
01:26:25,490 --> 01:26:22,800
research by country by time it was I

1725
01:26:28,700 --> 01:26:25,500
guess time had allotted played into it a

1726
01:26:30,440 --> 01:26:28,710
lot I think more than anything else you

1727
01:26:33,290 --> 01:26:30,450
know I like to sort of take what I

1728
01:26:36,140 --> 01:26:33,300
consider like a journalistic approach to

1729
01:26:38,920 --> 01:26:36,150
what I do you know so you you sort of

1730
01:26:42,290 --> 01:26:38,930
seek out stories and witnesses and

1731
01:26:44,030 --> 01:26:42,300
government documents and if there are

1732
01:26:45,620 --> 01:26:44,040
cases from the past you know where

1733
01:26:48,950 --> 01:26:45,630
somebody had a really strange encounter

1734
01:26:51,350 --> 01:26:48,960
with a bizarre creature well you know

1735
01:26:53,630 --> 01:26:51,360
you try and find the person who it was

1736
01:26:56,210 --> 01:26:53,640
and if they're no longer around but

1737
01:26:57,920 --> 01:26:56,220
their grandchildren are you know I do

1738
01:27:00,710 --> 01:26:57,930
the proactive approach I track down

1739
01:27:02,120 --> 01:27:00,720
track him down and fouled him up you

1740
01:27:05,030 --> 01:27:02,130
know and say hey you know my name's Nick

1741
01:27:07,190 --> 01:27:05,040
Redfern etc writing a book on this would

1742
01:27:10,730 --> 01:27:07,200
be interested in sharing your

1743
01:27:12,920 --> 01:27:10,740
grandfather's and council back in 1921

1744
01:27:14,300 --> 01:27:12,930
or whatever you know I don't sort of

1745
01:27:18,020 --> 01:27:14,310
shyam not what these people shied away

1746
01:27:19,970 --> 01:27:18,030
from taking a proactive approach you

1747
01:27:23,120 --> 01:27:19,980
know I'll knock on doors and use the

1748
01:27:25,730 --> 01:27:23,130
Freedom of Information Act and you know

1749
01:27:28,430 --> 01:27:25,740
track down people who might have some

1750
01:27:30,290 --> 01:27:28,440
knowledge and in the same way you know

1751
01:27:32,120 --> 01:27:30,300
if you're a journalist living in a

1752
01:27:34,430 --> 01:27:32,130
little town and you're investigating a

1753
01:27:37,430 --> 01:27:34,440
local murder you know you get you put

1754
01:27:39,470 --> 01:27:37,440
all the pieces together and and track

1755
01:27:41,720 --> 01:27:39,480
down anyone who knows about it and

1756
01:27:45,410 --> 01:27:41,730
that's that's what I do you know I take

1757
01:27:49,250 --> 01:27:45,420
that approach to so compiling each

1758
01:27:50,300 --> 01:27:49,260
chapter in the book how many I want two

1759
01:27:53,680 --> 01:27:50,310
numbers from you

1760
01:27:56,990 --> 01:27:53,690
the first one is how many different

1761
01:27:57,899 --> 01:27:57,000
types of beings did you think you were

1762
01:28:01,140 --> 01:27:57,909
gonna write about

1763
01:28:04,709 --> 01:28:01,150
and then ultimately how many made it in

1764
01:28:06,810 --> 01:28:04,719
the book well that's a good point

1765
01:28:09,450 --> 01:28:06,820
because I initially I thought it

1766
01:28:11,399 --> 01:28:09,460
probably would be round about twenty

1767
01:28:13,589 --> 01:28:11,409
twenty-five because admittedly most

1768
01:28:16,589 --> 01:28:13,599
people do think about the space brothers

1769
01:28:19,740 --> 01:28:16,599
the greys the reptilians and then a few

1770
01:28:22,649 --> 01:28:19,750
kind of offshoots but when the book was

1771
01:28:25,470 --> 01:28:22,659
completed there's actually close to

1772
01:28:29,790 --> 01:28:25,480
fifty different chapters in the book on

1773
01:28:31,859 --> 01:28:29,800
different types of aliens alien

1774
01:28:34,319 --> 01:28:31,869
creatures that have been seen over the

1775
01:28:37,140 --> 01:28:34,329
years and and it sort of crosses

1776
01:28:39,240 --> 01:28:37,150
everything from those three obviously

1777
01:28:41,790 --> 01:28:39,250
the work the most well known types of

1778
01:28:44,189 --> 01:28:41,800
entities that have been seen but then

1779
01:28:46,680 --> 01:28:44,199
again you you know you've got some some

1780
01:28:48,390 --> 01:28:46,690
creatures that just pops at once like

1781
01:28:51,180 --> 01:28:48,400
the famous story of the flatwoods

1782
01:28:54,089 --> 01:28:51,190
monster or West Virginia right with this

1783
01:28:55,410 --> 01:28:54,099
yeah I mean that's like a including that

1784
01:28:59,310 --> 01:28:55,420
in the book not just because it was a

1785
01:29:00,479 --> 01:28:59,320
fascinating story but also because he

1786
01:29:02,669 --> 01:29:00,489
was like a one-off thing

1787
01:29:07,490 --> 01:29:02,679
nothing like the flatwoods monster was

1788
01:29:09,839 --> 01:29:07,500
ever seen again and then you've got more

1789
01:29:11,580 --> 01:29:09,849
modern-day stuff like the black-eyed

1790
01:29:14,370 --> 01:29:11,590
children which I've got a lengthy

1791
01:29:16,979 --> 01:29:14,380
chapter on the under black-eyed children

1792
01:29:21,540 --> 01:29:16,989
you know these sort of pale faced

1793
01:29:23,790 --> 01:29:21,550
black-eyed hybrid human alien creatures

1794
01:29:27,120 --> 01:29:23,800
have you want to term them and also got

1795
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:27,130
some sort of ancient astronaut stories

1796
01:29:33,330 --> 01:29:30,730
like for example you know if you look

1797
01:29:36,510 --> 01:29:33,340
back into the distant past like quetzel

1798
01:29:39,479 --> 01:29:36,520
Kotal you know that has been perceived

1799
01:29:42,089 --> 01:29:39,489
by ancient astronaut researchers as a

1800
01:29:44,459 --> 01:29:42,099
some sort of extraterrestrials so you

1801
01:29:47,550 --> 01:29:44,469
know I really try and split it up and

1802
01:29:51,720 --> 01:29:47,560
also you know creatures like the

1803
01:29:53,640 --> 01:29:51,730
chupacabra and also cases where Bigfoot

1804
01:29:57,030 --> 01:29:53,650
creatures have been seen at the same

1805
01:30:00,569 --> 01:29:57,040
time and location as UFOs suggesting a

1806
01:30:05,270 --> 01:30:00,579
potential UFO link to Bigfoot so there's

1807
01:30:08,640 --> 01:30:05,280
like a lot of variation in terms of the

1808
01:30:11,220 --> 01:30:08,650
potential creatures or aliens but you

1809
01:30:14,400 --> 01:30:11,230
know I've looked into what was the

1810
01:30:18,890 --> 01:30:14,410
one I mean for even Nick Redfern where

1811
01:30:22,260 --> 01:30:18,900
you want okay now this is interesting

1812
01:30:25,740 --> 01:30:22,270
yeah what's the one that stood out but

1813
01:30:30,510 --> 01:30:25,750
you didn't know before mmm yeah that you

1814
01:30:33,870 --> 01:30:30,520
didn't know of before well I mean one of

1815
01:30:35,960 --> 01:30:33,880
the sort of more disturbing ones but

1816
01:30:38,990 --> 01:30:35,970
sort of I guess to a degree

1817
01:30:42,030 --> 01:30:39,000
sensationalized as well is the issue of

1818
01:30:45,570 --> 01:30:42,040
people who've died allegedly at the

1819
01:30:49,140 --> 01:30:45,580
hands of extraterrestrials there's some

1820
01:30:52,800 --> 01:30:49,150
really weird and sinister stories that I

1821
01:30:54,960 --> 01:30:52,810
include in the book in one in relation

1822
01:30:57,740 --> 01:30:54,970
to the Bigfoot stories where they've

1823
01:31:00,960 --> 01:30:57,750
been sightings of Bigfoots and UFOs and

1824
01:31:03,390 --> 01:31:00,970
people have gone missing and there been

1825
01:31:06,060 --> 01:31:03,400
stories of people bodies being found

1826
01:31:11,040 --> 01:31:06,070
sort of torn to pieces you know by these

1827
01:31:13,430 --> 01:31:11,050
creatures and and also where people for

1828
01:31:16,979 --> 01:31:13,440
example event pilots you know

1829
01:31:19,950 --> 01:31:16,989
encountered UFOs and gone missing a

1830
01:31:24,630 --> 01:31:19,960
famous one from 1953 the Kinross case

1831
01:31:29,040 --> 01:31:24,640
where a military pilot was pursuing a

1832
01:31:32,070 --> 01:31:29,050
UFO over Michigan Lake Michigan and the

1833
01:31:34,560 --> 01:31:32,080
plane vanished and the UFO vanished so

1834
01:31:38,550 --> 01:31:34,570
that's one of the sort of one of the

1835
01:31:41,490 --> 01:31:38,560
more oh I guess sort of like a you know

1836
01:31:43,590 --> 01:31:41,500
it's complete completely out of the you

1837
01:31:46,080 --> 01:31:43,600
know the charts so to speak when you're

1838
01:31:49,350 --> 01:31:46,090
talking about aliens that may actually

1839
01:31:52,320 --> 01:31:49,360
be using us as a food source you know so

1840
01:31:55,650 --> 01:31:52,330
it gets into some controversial areas

1841
01:31:57,840 --> 01:31:55,660
that go you know far beyond just talking

1842
01:32:00,590 --> 01:31:57,850
about well this alien looks like this or

1843
01:32:05,670 --> 01:32:00,600
this alien looks like that you know and

1844
01:32:07,229 --> 01:32:05,680
there's been a lot of talk lately and

1845
01:32:09,180 --> 01:32:07,239
certainly the film was just released

1846
01:32:14,840 --> 01:32:09,190
about this to extraordinary this eating

1847
01:32:18,680 --> 01:32:14,850
about hybrids and hybrid children

1848
01:32:20,510 --> 01:32:18,690
may be here they may also you know and

1849
01:32:24,350 --> 01:32:20,520
take an off planet and live somewhere

1850
01:32:27,320 --> 01:32:24,360
else but that this seating program is is

1851
01:32:29,540 --> 01:32:27,330
worldwide you know there are potentially

1852
01:32:33,530 --> 01:32:29,550
millions of people that are involved in

1853
01:32:36,170 --> 01:32:33,540
this in which case it could be aliens

1854
01:32:39,380 --> 01:32:36,180
among us you know daily and we don't

1855
01:32:41,420 --> 01:32:39,390
even know about it well yeah that's a

1856
01:32:45,340 --> 01:32:41,430
good point because I actually do I've

1857
01:32:49,030 --> 01:32:45,350
got several chapters within the book

1858
01:32:51,800 --> 01:32:49,040
which deal with aliens that must

1859
01:32:54,320 --> 01:32:51,810
potentially at least may be able to

1860
01:32:58,160 --> 01:32:54,330
maneuver among us purely and simply

1861
01:33:00,920 --> 01:32:58,170
because they look so much just like us I

1862
01:33:03,530 --> 01:33:00,930
mean certainly you know you can go back

1863
01:33:06,410 --> 01:33:03,540
to the early 50s with a damn ski and Van

1864
01:33:09,350 --> 01:33:06,420
Tassel and people like that all of those

1865
01:33:12,470 --> 01:33:09,360
people then you know reportedly aliens

1866
01:33:15,110 --> 01:33:12,480
and looking extremely eerily you know

1867
01:33:17,090 --> 01:33:15,120
similar to us and the only differences

1868
01:33:20,000 --> 01:33:17,100
were that they had sort of you know

1869
01:33:21,470 --> 01:33:20,010
really long hair which the guys didn't

1870
01:33:24,350 --> 01:33:21,480
have you know but hanging there like

1871
01:33:26,660 --> 01:33:24,360
forties and fifties nobody above women

1872
01:33:28,910 --> 01:33:26,670
you know had long hair and I said I did

1873
01:33:31,190 --> 01:33:28,920
stand out and the other aspect being

1874
01:33:34,400 --> 01:33:31,200
that they were very often extremely tall

1875
01:33:37,340 --> 01:33:34,410
like six or eight six foot nine but I

1876
01:33:41,750 --> 01:33:37,350
would say for sure that in the modern

1877
01:33:43,750 --> 01:33:41,760
era at least the the entities that are

1878
01:33:46,910 --> 01:33:43,760
sort of perceived as you know

1879
01:33:49,190 --> 01:33:46,920
human-alien hybrids would be the

1880
01:33:52,220 --> 01:33:49,200
black-eyed children and you know

1881
01:33:54,440 --> 01:33:52,230
typically they're described as knocking

1882
01:33:57,200 --> 01:33:54,450
on people's doors late at night and

1883
01:33:59,630 --> 01:33:57,210
trying to find a way to be invited into

1884
01:34:02,450 --> 01:33:59,640
the house which very much parallels the

1885
01:34:04,250 --> 01:34:02,460
old legends of how vampires had to be

1886
01:34:07,970 --> 01:34:04,260
invited into the home before they could

1887
01:34:10,940 --> 01:34:07,980
cross the threshold so to speak and most

1888
01:34:13,730 --> 01:34:10,950
people describe the black-eyed children

1889
01:34:16,220 --> 01:34:13,740
as wearing black hoodies with the hood

1890
01:34:18,230 --> 01:34:16,230
pulled right down as far as it can go so

1891
01:34:20,600 --> 01:34:18,240
people don't actually get to see their

1892
01:34:23,960 --> 01:34:20,610
faces very well but the skin is

1893
01:34:27,660 --> 01:34:23,970
described as being very pale and almost

1894
01:34:30,620 --> 01:34:27,670
plastic light and and as well

1895
01:34:34,050 --> 01:34:30,630
that there kind of had this hypnotic

1896
01:34:36,510 --> 01:34:34,060
ability where people have said that they

1897
01:34:39,689 --> 01:34:36,520
got a really weird and creepy vibe from

1898
01:34:41,939 --> 01:34:39,699
the black-eyed children and they knew

1899
01:34:44,520 --> 01:34:41,949
they shouldn't open the door but they

1900
01:34:46,860 --> 01:34:44,530
they could see their hand going towards

1901
01:34:50,189 --> 01:34:46,870
the door as if something was actually

1902
01:34:51,689 --> 01:34:50,199
controlling their mind and forcing them

1903
01:34:54,930 --> 01:34:51,699
to open the door now

1904
01:34:56,580 --> 01:34:54,940
of the very few people who have said the

1905
01:35:00,660 --> 01:34:56,590
black-eyed children have actually

1906
01:35:02,910 --> 01:35:00,670
managed to get inside the home just

1907
01:35:05,729 --> 01:35:02,920
about all of them have said that within

1908
01:35:08,010 --> 01:35:05,739
quite literally seconds of being in the

1909
01:35:11,340 --> 01:35:08,020
presence of the black-eyed children they

1910
01:35:14,729 --> 01:35:11,350
started to feel weak and tired kind of

1911
01:35:16,800 --> 01:35:14,739
like as one explained it kind of like if

1912
01:35:20,340 --> 01:35:16,810
a diabetic was crashing you know they'd

1913
01:35:22,229 --> 01:35:20,350
miss breakfast miss lunch and then it

1914
01:35:24,540 --> 01:35:22,239
was like 11 o'clock at night they've got

1915
01:35:27,510 --> 01:35:24,550
a major case of the shakes and they feel

1916
01:35:29,280 --> 01:35:27,520
really ill and sweaty and cold that's

1917
01:35:31,229 --> 01:35:29,290
how people have described it when the

1918
01:35:33,650 --> 01:35:31,239
black-eyed children get in the house

1919
01:35:37,470 --> 01:35:33,660
it's like they're like a supernatural

1920
01:35:40,950 --> 01:35:37,480
parasite you know and their their goal

1921
01:35:42,780 --> 01:35:40,960
may literally be to sort of drain us of

1922
01:35:45,390 --> 01:35:42,790
our life force in that sense there would

1923
01:35:47,790 --> 01:35:45,400
be like an extraterrestrial vampire

1924
01:35:50,550 --> 01:35:47,800
almost if you like and that's that's one

1925
01:35:52,229 --> 01:35:50,560
of the angles that I talked about in one

1926
01:35:55,410 --> 01:35:52,239
of the specific chapters in the book

1927
01:35:59,160 --> 01:35:55,420
with Van Tassel you brought this up a

1928
01:36:02,850 --> 01:35:59,170
few times tonight and Van Tassel was

1929
01:36:05,040 --> 01:36:02,860
somebody that I've reached I've taken it

1930
01:36:07,680 --> 01:36:05,050
about as far as I can go right with a

1931
01:36:12,630 --> 01:36:07,690
George Van Tassel and him in Adamski

1932
01:36:18,750 --> 01:36:12,640
talking about their contact with with

1933
01:36:20,760 --> 01:36:18,760
the venetians Venusians they the

1934
01:36:23,760 --> 01:36:20,770
research that we had on Venus back in

1935
01:36:26,729 --> 01:36:23,770
the 50s was very incomplete then we

1936
01:36:29,669 --> 01:36:26,739
found out more about Venus and certainly

1937
01:36:31,680 --> 01:36:29,679
sent probes out to Venus and found out

1938
01:36:35,250 --> 01:36:31,690
that you know the temperature and what

1939
01:36:37,709 --> 01:36:35,260
Venus actually was changed our views

1940
01:36:38,540 --> 01:36:37,719
about the possibility of life being

1941
01:36:40,790 --> 01:36:38,550
there

1942
01:36:42,919 --> 01:36:40,800
then two days ago I don't know if you

1943
01:36:46,700 --> 01:36:42,929
read this but I'll just let you know you

1944
01:36:50,240 --> 01:36:46,710
can check it out this report in the

1945
01:36:55,100 --> 01:36:50,250
journal science was just released that

1946
01:36:58,609 --> 01:36:55,110
Venus was moderate temperatures until

1947
01:37:01,160 --> 01:36:58,619
700 million years ago and had all of the

1948
01:37:05,959 --> 01:37:01,170
water and everything that was needed an

1949
01:37:09,169 --> 01:37:05,969
oxygen for three billion years only

1950
01:37:11,780 --> 01:37:09,179
until recently has the temperatures

1951
01:37:14,720 --> 01:37:11,790
risen there and you know turning it into

1952
01:37:18,229 --> 01:37:14,730
the hellhole that it is today but it

1953
01:37:21,339 --> 01:37:18,239
makes you wonder now about Van Tassel

1954
01:37:24,470 --> 01:37:21,349
and what others were talking about I

1955
01:37:26,359 --> 01:37:24,480
after reading that report Nick I just

1956
01:37:29,149 --> 01:37:26,369
thought maybe they're underground maybe

1957
01:37:32,569 --> 01:37:29,159
there was something really to what

1958
01:37:34,339 --> 01:37:32,579
George Van Tassel had to say what did

1959
01:37:37,490 --> 01:37:34,349
you get a chance to read that report or

1960
01:37:40,010 --> 01:37:37,500
zine in the news I actually haven't seen

1961
01:37:42,530 --> 01:37:40,020
that report but I will but there's

1962
01:37:44,089 --> 01:37:42,540
several things you you said actually

1963
01:37:46,160 --> 01:37:44,099
stand out

1964
01:37:47,839 --> 01:37:46,170
I mean you point out you know the fact

1965
01:37:50,839 --> 01:37:47,849
that in the distant past

1966
01:37:53,569 --> 01:37:50,849
you know Venus may have been hospitable

1967
01:37:56,209 --> 01:37:53,579
and you know had a good climate and

1968
01:37:58,760 --> 01:37:56,219
oxygen I mean that's actually not too

1969
01:38:00,950 --> 01:37:58,770
dissimilar for what we know from NASA's

1970
01:38:04,459 --> 01:38:00,960
probes that have been sent to Mars you

1971
01:38:06,350 --> 01:38:04,469
know where it's very clear but you know

1972
01:38:10,069 --> 01:38:06,360
in the distant past that Mars had

1973
01:38:11,629 --> 01:38:10,079
abundant amounts of water you know and

1974
01:38:14,660 --> 01:38:11,639
we're not talking about just at the

1975
01:38:16,490 --> 01:38:14,670
polar ice caps in the form of ice but

1976
01:38:18,709 --> 01:38:16,500
you know sort of massive lakes and

1977
01:38:22,280 --> 01:38:18,719
possibly it's been theorized you know

1978
01:38:24,979 --> 01:38:22,290
oceans on Mars now a friend of mine did

1979
01:38:27,950 --> 01:38:24,989
the light Mac Tony's he he died young at

1980
01:38:30,470 --> 01:38:27,960
34 of heart disease but before he died

1981
01:38:33,350 --> 01:38:30,480
Mac wrote a book called the crypto

1982
01:38:36,439 --> 01:38:33,360
terrestrials which looked at the idea of

1983
01:38:38,270 --> 01:38:36,449
an ancient race which could either have

1984
01:38:41,870 --> 01:38:38,280
being an ancient human race or now

1985
01:38:45,979 --> 01:38:41,880
ancient extraterrestrial race the putz

1986
01:38:48,350 --> 01:38:45,989
came to the earth and actually decided

1987
01:38:51,740 --> 01:38:48,360
that the best way to live on our planet

1988
01:38:52,370 --> 01:38:51,750
and to avoid this warlike race called

1989
01:38:57,260 --> 01:38:52,380
the human

1990
01:38:59,060 --> 01:38:57,270
would be to live underground and and

1991
01:39:02,270 --> 01:38:59,070
although his book was written in a very

1992
01:39:05,300 --> 01:39:02,280
sort of hypothetical way he did sort of

1993
01:39:08,330 --> 01:39:05,310
address those those actual points the

1994
01:39:11,690 --> 01:39:08,340
idea of you know say a faraway world

1995
01:39:14,540 --> 01:39:11,700
that was destroyed or that was on the

1996
01:39:18,230 --> 01:39:14,550
brink of destruction and they sort of

1997
01:39:20,750 --> 01:39:18,240
migrated to the earth and decided to

1998
01:39:24,380 --> 01:39:20,760
keep away from us and could have been

1999
01:39:28,250 --> 01:39:24,390
responsible you know for today's you UFO

2000
01:39:30,470 --> 01:39:28,260
encounters but possibly the idea that

2001
01:39:33,380 --> 01:39:30,480
you know they don't they've never gone

2002
01:39:36,530 --> 01:39:33,390
home to their home planets but may well

2003
01:39:41,060 --> 01:39:36,540
sort of be hidden parties on our own

2004
01:39:44,660 --> 01:39:41,070
world I have I've said this many times

2005
01:39:47,660 --> 01:39:44,670
there are two people there's many but

2006
01:39:49,640 --> 01:39:47,670
they're two that stand out that I I will

2007
01:39:53,420 --> 01:39:49,650
never get a chance to interview and and

2008
01:39:57,890 --> 01:39:53,430
didn't one being Lloyd Pye and the other

2009
01:40:02,690 --> 01:39:57,900
one Mac Mac Tony's and yeah he died at

2010
01:40:05,900 --> 01:40:02,700
thirty-four what was he like well Mac

2011
01:40:08,480 --> 01:40:05,910
was a good guy he died unfortunately of

2012
01:40:10,160 --> 01:40:08,490
heart disease you know it's just one of

2013
01:40:13,040 --> 01:40:10,170
those things that unfortunately happens

2014
01:40:14,870 --> 01:40:13,050
that sometimes a young person gets heart

2015
01:40:19,130 --> 01:40:14,880
disease and that that's what happened

2016
01:40:22,040 --> 01:40:19,140
with Mac but he's two books he wrote two

2017
01:40:25,430 --> 01:40:22,050
non-fiction books both of which kind of

2018
01:40:27,890 --> 01:40:25,440
melted into each other one was called

2019
01:40:29,510 --> 01:40:27,900
after the Martian apocalypse and the

2020
01:40:32,830 --> 01:40:29,520
other one was his book the Krypto

2021
01:40:37,810 --> 01:40:32,840
terrestrials now after the Martian

2022
01:40:41,570 --> 01:40:37,820
apocalypse was a very good solid and

2023
01:40:43,940 --> 01:40:41,580
largely free of speculation in relation

2024
01:40:45,530 --> 01:40:43,950
to things like the face on Mars and you

2025
01:40:48,680 --> 01:40:45,540
know these pyramid structures that

2026
01:40:51,290 --> 01:40:48,690
people talk about and the rest riyals

2027
01:40:54,310 --> 01:40:51,300
look to the side here believe an ancient

2028
01:40:57,260 --> 01:40:54,320
human or an ancient extraterrestrial

2029
01:40:59,960 --> 01:40:57,270
civilization possibly very enforced to

2030
01:41:02,120 --> 01:40:59,970
go from their world to here and as it

2031
01:41:04,580 --> 01:41:02,130
said sort of borrowing you know

2032
01:41:05,810 --> 01:41:04,590
thousands of feet under the earth and

2033
01:41:08,750 --> 01:41:05,820
living there and just

2034
01:41:11,420 --> 01:41:08,760
now and again surfacing but Mac Mac was

2035
01:41:13,490 --> 01:41:11,430
someone he sort of ups and portrayed is

2036
01:41:15,140 --> 01:41:13,500
like a very intense sort of type

2037
01:41:18,230 --> 01:41:15,150
character but he wasn't he was just

2038
01:41:20,840 --> 01:41:18,240
someone who was very driven by what he

2039
01:41:23,540 --> 01:41:20,850
liked to do but also you know in a very

2040
01:41:28,040 --> 01:41:23,550
good sense of humor and you know a good

2041
01:41:30,110 --> 01:41:28,050
social life and you know he other words

2042
01:41:34,640 --> 01:41:30,120
he was someone but he was someone I

2043
01:41:36,980 --> 01:41:34,650
should say who was very driven in terms

2044
01:41:39,200 --> 01:41:36,990
of fact that his beta you know he wasn't

2045
01:41:41,780 --> 01:41:39,210
someone who speculated a great day and

2046
01:41:44,090 --> 01:41:41,790
he was just just the facts plays that

2047
01:41:45,950 --> 01:41:44,100
kind of thing working everybody I want

2048
01:41:48,440 --> 01:41:45,960
to thank you Nick what a great

2049
01:41:51,260 --> 01:41:48,450
conversation tonight just amazing

2050
01:41:58,940 --> 01:41:51,270
where can everybody go and find out all

2051
01:42:00,770 --> 01:41:58,950
of your books I think that 40% of them

2052
01:42:01,580 --> 01:42:00,780
you can get off the shelves in Barnes

2053
01:42:04,100 --> 01:42:01,590
and Noble

2054
01:42:08,000 --> 01:42:04,110
if you want to concept me Nick Redfern

2055
01:42:10,210 --> 01:42:08,010
ufo's my Twitter accounts I blog world

2056
01:42:12,350 --> 01:42:10,220
of whatever you can reach me there and

2057
01:42:14,480 --> 01:42:12,360
Facebook as well there's a bunch inning

2058
01:42:16,700 --> 01:42:14,490
Redferns but scroll down and you'll see

2059
01:42:20,030 --> 01:42:16,710
me so thank you so much are you speaking

2060
01:42:22,640 --> 01:42:20,040
anywhere what are you doing yeah

2061
01:42:25,940 --> 01:42:22,650
actually roughly this time next month

2062
01:42:27,980 --> 01:42:25,950
are they at the Texas Bigfoot conference

2063
01:42:31,040 --> 01:42:27,990
in Jefferson Texas and then the

2064
01:42:33,440 --> 01:42:31,050
following week also in Texas I'll be at

2065
01:42:37,790 --> 01:42:33,450
the goal and festival which are my other

2066
01:42:40,820 --> 01:42:37,800
big interests cryptozoology and then in

2067
01:42:42,800 --> 01:42:40,830
early November I'll be speaking at the

2068
01:42:45,260 --> 01:42:42,810
conference of the unexplained in

2069
01:42:50,120 --> 01:42:45,270
Pennsylvania thank you so much Nick

2070
01:42:53,660 --> 01:42:50,130
enjoy the rest of your night Nick

2071
01:42:55,550 --> 01:42:53,670
Redfern and Nick's links are right there

2072
01:42:58,310 --> 01:42:55,560
at Jimmy Church radio.com

2073
01:43:00,650 --> 01:42:58,320
you can go and click Nick Redfern 14

2074
01:43:03,950 --> 01:43:00,660
blogspot.com right there to me Church

2075
01:43:05,860 --> 01:43:03,960
radio and everything you need is right

2076
01:43:08,360 --> 01:43:05,870
there I'm gonna take a quick break and

2077
01:43:11,300 --> 01:43:08,370
I'll be back and I'm gonna open up the

2078
01:43:14,810 --> 01:43:11,310
phone lines let's go open lines for the

2079
01:43:17,180 --> 01:43:14,820
next half hour like we always do seven

2080
01:43:18,040 --> 01:43:17,190
four seven two two eight two zero five

2081
01:43:22,770 --> 01:43:18,050
one I'll be right

2082
01:43:22,780 --> 01:43:32,199
[Music]

2083
01:43:39,109 --> 01:43:34,310
welcome back fade to black I'm real

2084
01:43:42,589 --> 01:43:39,119
super Church Thank You Nick Redfern Wow

2085
01:43:43,250 --> 01:43:42,599
Oh great conversation both books are

2086
01:43:44,869 --> 01:43:43,260
amazing

2087
01:43:49,609 --> 01:43:44,879
and you can just head over to Nick's

2088
01:43:52,699 --> 01:43:49,619
site and and pick them up the they're

2089
01:43:54,379 --> 01:43:52,709
both amazing he mentioned oh by the way

2090
01:43:57,439 --> 01:43:54,389
phone lines are open seven four seven

2091
01:43:59,959 --> 01:43:57,449
two two eight two zero five one will go

2092
01:44:03,799 --> 01:43:59,969
open lines for this last segment

2093
01:44:07,250 --> 01:44:03,809
he mentioned fifty five books and I've

2094
01:44:10,819 --> 01:44:07,260
got like a Nick Redfern shelf it's all I

2095
01:44:13,819 --> 01:44:10,829
could say and I just enjoyed reading

2096
01:44:18,139 --> 01:44:13,829
them all seven four seven two two eight

2097
01:44:19,520 --> 01:44:18,149
two zero five one open lines right now

2098
01:44:20,779 --> 01:44:19,530
let's go straight to the phones hi

2099
01:44:22,569 --> 01:44:20,789
you're live on fade to black who's

2100
01:44:26,419 --> 01:44:22,579
calling

2101
01:44:29,149 --> 01:44:26,429
Nathan oh hi oh hey Nathan in Ohio how

2102
01:44:33,080 --> 01:44:29,159
are you I'm good

2103
01:44:38,270 --> 01:44:33,090
hi first thing ever request as a fan of

2104
01:44:42,169 --> 01:44:38,280
the show that you do some Q&A is with

2105
01:44:45,529 --> 01:44:42,179
some people soon q and A's isn't that

2106
01:44:49,639 --> 01:44:45,539
what I do every night Nathan well I mean

2107
01:44:53,049 --> 01:44:49,649
I guess but see I'm not I guess I like

2108
01:44:57,589 --> 01:44:53,059
being able to call and ask a question oh

2109
01:44:59,929 --> 01:44:57,599
I see you want you want to be able to

2110
01:45:04,939 --> 01:44:59,939
call in and speak to the guests yeah we

2111
01:45:09,889 --> 01:45:04,949
can do that I mean yeah sure anybody's

2112
01:45:13,489 --> 01:45:09,899
specific that you have in mind well you

2113
01:45:15,379 --> 01:45:13,499
know the thought that I had about it was

2114
01:45:17,750 --> 01:45:15,389
this see I was one of the one of the

2115
01:45:21,229 --> 01:45:17,760
left I was one of the last people to I

2116
01:45:24,109 --> 01:45:21,239
was on the show that was Jim Martha's

2117
01:45:26,629 --> 01:45:24,119
last shell uh-huh and that's what kind

2118
01:45:31,669 --> 01:45:26,639
of inspired this thought in my mind the

2119
01:45:34,219 --> 01:45:31,679
other day and it's all about a specific

2120
01:45:40,219 --> 01:45:34,229
person but you might focus on people

2121
01:45:43,429 --> 01:45:40,229
that you know really have vast knowledge

2122
01:45:44,660 --> 01:45:43,439
on maybe pick a specific subject each

2123
01:45:50,840 --> 01:45:44,670
night

2124
01:45:53,600 --> 01:45:50,850
and do one that pick somebody that knows

2125
01:45:59,540 --> 01:45:53,610
that subject well enough to answer the

2126
01:46:03,440 --> 01:45:59,550
questions you know yeah and we the there

2127
01:46:07,430 --> 01:46:03,450
isn't any reason why I don't go to open

2128
01:46:11,480 --> 01:46:07,440
lines one thing that I have found and

2129
01:46:15,380 --> 01:46:11,490
this is just me that when I have two

2130
01:46:21,800 --> 01:46:15,390
hours with a guest each night

2131
01:46:24,110 --> 01:46:21,810
I don't have time to to go to open lines

2132
01:46:26,900 --> 01:46:24,120
because we're always me deep in it like

2133
01:46:30,470 --> 01:46:26,910
tonight with Nick right there was just

2134
01:46:34,370 --> 01:46:30,480
so much stuff to cover and going to open

2135
01:46:36,770 --> 01:46:34,380
lines would take away from my time with

2136
01:46:39,860 --> 01:46:36,780
him and I know that's being a little bit

2137
01:46:43,550 --> 01:46:39,870
selfish in some regards but it's just

2138
01:46:46,550 --> 01:46:43,560
that I always run out of time and when I

2139
01:46:50,300 --> 01:46:46,560
have and this is another way to look at

2140
01:46:54,110 --> 01:46:50,310
it most some guests are from the west

2141
01:46:55,970 --> 01:46:54,120
coast most are not right there on a

2142
01:46:57,920 --> 01:46:55,980
different time zone they're in a

2143
01:47:01,070 --> 01:46:57,930
different time zone so if I have

2144
01:47:03,590 --> 01:47:01,080
somebody from New York or from Chicago

2145
01:47:08,720 --> 01:47:03,600
or from Florida or whatever like Nick is

2146
01:47:13,550 --> 01:47:08,730
in Texas he's two hours ahead so right

2147
01:47:16,250 --> 01:47:13,560
now for Nick it's 11:30 at night right

2148
01:47:18,380 --> 01:47:16,260
and I and I have to respect that part of

2149
01:47:21,260 --> 01:47:18,390
it too and and and that's it I don't

2150
01:47:24,710 --> 01:47:21,270
have a specific reason other than it's a

2151
01:47:29,420 --> 01:47:24,720
time thing but I'm bringing on somebody

2152
01:47:32,180 --> 01:47:29,430
specifically to do a Q&A like an AMA

2153
01:47:33,530 --> 01:47:32,190
type Q&A and just do a broadcast like

2154
01:47:35,690 --> 01:47:33,540
that I think that's a great idea

2155
01:47:37,610 --> 01:47:35,700
you know that's why I was asking you did

2156
01:47:40,880 --> 01:47:37,620
you have somebody's specific like for

2157
01:47:47,080 --> 01:47:40,890
Nick tonight right for Nick tonight what

2158
01:47:49,880 --> 01:47:47,090
would you have asked him well honestly I

2159
01:47:52,370 --> 01:47:49,890
would ask about if you notice anything

2160
01:47:54,170 --> 01:47:52,380
about individuality with some different

2161
01:47:56,560 --> 01:47:54,180
types of aliens I know that came up

2162
01:47:58,580 --> 01:47:56,570
latest at towards the end of the show

2163
01:48:02,510 --> 01:47:58,590
but I know

2164
01:48:05,480 --> 01:48:02,520
he hears reports beyond probably even

2165
01:48:08,120 --> 01:48:05,490
your average ufologist just because he

2166
01:48:10,310 --> 01:48:08,130
kind of he's around for a long time he

2167
01:48:12,340 --> 01:48:10,320
covers a lot of different high

2168
01:48:15,050 --> 01:48:12,350
strangeness

2169
01:48:17,450 --> 01:48:15,060
so he's people are probably totally

2170
01:48:21,050 --> 01:48:17,460
Linda people are comfortable to go to

2171
01:48:22,490 --> 01:48:21,060
Linda about things right I wanted to ask

2172
01:48:27,920 --> 01:48:22,500
you

2173
01:48:30,980 --> 01:48:27,930
that it's written it's very interesting

2174
01:48:35,540 --> 01:48:30,990
and he you know he hit with the number

2175
01:48:39,910 --> 01:48:35,550
of around fifty right fifty eighty

2176
01:48:46,100 --> 01:48:39,920
different types of ETS visiting earth I

2177
01:48:48,290 --> 01:48:46,110
I would put the number in the thousands

2178
01:48:52,310 --> 01:48:48,300
right now that would be a nearly

2179
01:48:55,460 --> 01:48:52,320
impossible book to write be very and

2180
01:48:58,370 --> 01:48:55,470
like David Icke you would have one page

2181
01:49:00,880 --> 01:48:58,380
per alien and come up with a 900-page

2182
01:49:03,530 --> 01:49:00,890
book how many different types of

2183
01:49:07,640 --> 01:49:03,540
different ETS do you think are visiting

2184
01:49:09,260 --> 01:49:07,650
earth how many of you seen well I come

2185
01:49:11,060 --> 01:49:09,270
from the perspective of somebody who's

2186
01:49:12,590 --> 01:49:11,070
better than that back there feels way

2187
01:49:13,100 --> 01:49:12,600
better than a black teen their whole

2188
01:49:15,970 --> 01:49:13,110
life

2189
01:49:20,810 --> 01:49:15,980
mmm-hmm like I would identify that way

2190
01:49:23,420 --> 01:49:20,820
so I've seen about fifteen but in that

2191
01:49:26,630 --> 01:49:23,430
group of fifteen they're all individual

2192
01:49:29,900 --> 01:49:26,640
species and I don't see a lot of

2193
01:49:35,500 --> 01:49:29,910
individual individuality within their

2194
01:49:40,490 --> 01:49:35,510
culture that I've noticed so it's like

2195
01:49:43,610 --> 01:49:40,500
are they interested maybe were even he

2196
01:49:49,610 --> 01:49:43,620
and I think we're here to experience

2197
01:49:52,940 --> 01:49:49,620
individuality that's interesting when if

2198
01:49:57,950 --> 01:49:52,950
we if we flip this around a little bit

2199
01:50:01,820 --> 01:49:57,960
and let's say that you and I and twenty

2200
01:50:04,940 --> 01:50:01,830
other people write our friends or

2201
01:50:07,490 --> 01:50:04,950
buddies it doesn't matter twenty we go

2202
01:50:10,880 --> 01:50:07,500
we go to Zeta Reticuli

2203
01:50:12,410 --> 01:50:10,890
right you know we go to serpo for

2204
01:50:16,220 --> 01:50:12,420
instance and we land

2205
01:50:19,490 --> 01:50:16,230
and we get off the ship now we know the

2206
01:50:22,729 --> 01:50:19,500
individuality that is here on earth but

2207
01:50:25,840 --> 01:50:22,739
we also know everybody is human but

2208
01:50:32,570 --> 01:50:25,850
we've got every color every height every

2209
01:50:36,050 --> 01:50:32,580
weight right if every and would they

2210
01:50:39,020 --> 01:50:36,060
perceive us not as being earthlings

2211
01:50:41,840 --> 01:50:39,030
right that not being homo sapien sapien

2212
01:50:44,450 --> 01:50:41,850
that they would think by at first glance

2213
01:50:47,300 --> 01:50:44,460
that quite possibly who that we were

2214
01:50:51,830 --> 01:50:47,310
from different planets do you think that

2215
01:50:53,750 --> 01:50:51,840
well yeah you know what I mean well I

2216
01:50:56,300 --> 01:50:53,760
just know that they were interested it

2217
01:51:02,419 --> 01:50:56,310
they've been interested in us for a very

2218
01:51:07,459 --> 01:51:02,429
long time and it's not just study us sir

2219
01:51:11,530 --> 01:51:07,469
they'd be gone by now so they think

2220
01:51:16,370 --> 01:51:11,540
we're important for some reason well

2221
01:51:18,709 --> 01:51:16,380
last night with Whitley Whitley said

2222
01:51:21,470 --> 01:51:18,719
last night I don't know if he caught the

2223
01:51:25,760 --> 01:51:21,480
show but he said one thing you did okay

2224
01:51:29,990 --> 01:51:25,770
he said they were interested in our

2225
01:51:33,380 --> 01:51:30,000
souls not necessarily the planet do you

2226
01:51:35,630 --> 01:51:33,390
agree with them I do I do at least one

2227
01:51:38,689 --> 01:51:35,640
of my favorite I'm a regular dream

2228
01:51:40,820 --> 01:51:38,699
lander you know what Whitley is one of

2229
01:51:44,350 --> 01:51:40,830
my favorite people that was a great

2230
01:51:47,270 --> 01:51:44,360
conversation last night with Whitley

2231
01:51:50,030 --> 01:51:47,280
with them yeah the perspective not

2232
01:51:52,010 --> 01:51:50,040
everybody gets to share but I think a

2233
01:51:54,160 --> 01:51:52,020
lot of people agree with him that aren't

2234
01:51:58,610 --> 01:51:54,170
necessarily in the position to speak it

2235
01:52:01,130 --> 01:51:58,620
well one we okay and so staying on this

2236
01:52:04,180 --> 01:52:01,140
I want I want to know what you've seen

2237
01:52:08,080 --> 01:52:04,190
when you say you don't see individuality

2238
01:52:11,360 --> 01:52:08,090
in the same species what do you say that

2239
01:52:13,270 --> 01:52:11,370
they're identical are they almost like

2240
01:52:16,250 --> 01:52:13,280
clones of each other

2241
01:52:20,020 --> 01:52:16,260
it does seem that way even the Nordics

2242
01:52:25,400 --> 01:52:20,030
which appear to be the most human to me

2243
01:52:26,270 --> 01:52:25,410
right there they're almost two I mean

2244
01:52:28,669 --> 01:52:26,280
they're like looking

2245
01:52:31,700 --> 01:52:28,679
data they're like that's how pale they

2246
01:52:37,370 --> 01:52:31,710
are but they're ignored it but they have

2247
01:52:42,709 --> 01:52:37,380
blonde hair and it's it's like they're

2248
01:52:44,169 --> 01:52:42,719
obviously not human but it's not that

2249
01:52:49,640 --> 01:52:44,179
they're unattractive

2250
01:52:52,250 --> 01:52:49,650
it's just that they all appear the same

2251
01:52:53,930 --> 01:52:52,260
because they have genetically altered

2252
01:52:54,560 --> 01:52:53,940
themselves to the point where they all

2253
01:52:57,620 --> 01:52:54,570
look the same

2254
01:52:59,660 --> 01:52:57,630
anyway there's a there's I mean

2255
01:53:03,410 --> 01:52:59,670
everything kind of seems to serve its

2256
01:53:09,189 --> 01:53:03,420
purpose out there and we kind of choose

2257
01:53:14,839 --> 01:53:09,199
our own purpose here and what and the

2258
01:53:17,510 --> 01:53:14,849
the individuality part of it when it

2259
01:53:22,069 --> 01:53:17,520
comes to you know the Mantis being

2260
01:53:28,609 --> 01:53:22,079
specifically and these reptilian races I

2261
01:53:33,379 --> 01:53:28,619
don't know if if I had if I had seen a

2262
01:53:36,350 --> 01:53:33,389
snake right a snake and in a couple of

2263
01:53:40,069 --> 01:53:36,360
weeks later I see the same species of

2264
01:53:42,919 --> 01:53:40,079
snake but I wouldn't be able to tell if

2265
01:53:45,859 --> 01:53:42,929
it was two different snakes or if it was

2266
01:53:47,930 --> 01:53:45,869
the same one which is do we have the

2267
01:53:50,149 --> 01:53:47,940
same issues with and like what the

2268
01:53:52,640 --> 01:53:50,159
Mantis beings all right I wouldn't have

2269
01:53:56,270 --> 01:53:52,650
I don't know if I would be able to tell

2270
01:53:58,310 --> 01:53:56,280
the difference well first of all I can

2271
01:53:59,740 --> 01:53:58,320
speak from the if it wasn't for the fact

2272
01:54:03,169 --> 01:53:59,750
that they're controlling your mind

2273
01:54:04,609 --> 01:54:03,179
because when I step away from them you

2274
01:54:06,470 --> 01:54:04,619
know because in the moment you're not

2275
01:54:09,010 --> 01:54:06,480
terrified by them because they're kind

2276
01:54:12,049 --> 01:54:09,020
of controlling your mind

2277
01:54:14,089 --> 01:54:12,059
but what's you're away from the

2278
01:54:17,089 --> 01:54:14,099
situation and you're trying to process

2279
01:54:20,149 --> 01:54:17,099
having been in the situation where there

2280
01:54:23,540 --> 01:54:20,159
was a seven-foot-tall mantis being it

2281
01:54:26,990 --> 01:54:23,550
does become hard to tell you know one

2282
01:54:30,669 --> 01:54:27,000
from another one but they don't seem

2283
01:54:33,049 --> 01:54:30,679
like they're any more they may have

2284
01:54:35,600 --> 01:54:33,059
managerial status but I don't think

2285
01:54:38,120 --> 01:54:35,610
they're in charge of anything they seem

2286
01:54:40,160 --> 01:54:38,130
to answer to some higher cause to them

2287
01:54:44,830 --> 01:54:40,170
even

2288
01:54:47,450 --> 01:54:44,840
interesting and I have heard many times

2289
01:54:48,979 --> 01:54:47,460
but if I came face to face with the

2290
01:54:52,790 --> 01:54:48,989
mantas being I think I would be

2291
01:54:57,850 --> 01:54:52,800
terrified and I have heard so many times

2292
01:55:01,910 --> 01:54:57,860
that it was the Mantis beings that were

2293
01:55:04,550 --> 01:55:01,920
the kindest right they were the gentlest

2294
01:55:07,910 --> 01:55:04,560
they were the nicest and and the most

2295
01:55:10,630 --> 01:55:07,920
intelligence do you get the same

2296
01:55:15,560 --> 01:55:10,640
impressions uh

2297
01:55:17,360 --> 01:55:15,570
you know I think everything there's a

2298
01:55:20,660 --> 01:55:17,370
real strong chance that a lot of these

2299
01:55:23,330 --> 01:55:20,670
things have to they have to adapt to our

2300
01:55:25,820 --> 01:55:23,340
individuality it's like that's why

2301
01:55:29,570 --> 01:55:25,830
there's like a whole group of beings

2302
01:55:31,400 --> 01:55:29,580
involved in abducting one person you

2303
01:55:33,490 --> 01:55:31,410
know I mean human beings are so

2304
01:55:36,490 --> 01:55:33,500
unpredictable

2305
01:55:39,140 --> 01:55:36,500
so a lot of it is that I mean they just

2306
01:55:42,770 --> 01:55:39,150
they're it's like Willy was saying these

2307
01:55:47,810 --> 01:55:42,780
things are so so different from us that

2308
01:55:50,120 --> 01:55:47,820
it's it's not like it's the opposite of

2309
01:55:53,600 --> 01:55:50,130
the relationship you have with your dogs

2310
01:55:56,510 --> 01:55:53,610
yeah I know a mantis being can scare to

2311
01:56:02,050 --> 01:55:56,520
your eyes and make you feel whatever

2312
01:56:07,310 --> 01:56:02,060
emotion it wants you to feel it's like I

2313
01:56:11,360 --> 01:56:07,320
I call it the love affair mm-hm and it's

2314
01:56:14,120 --> 01:56:11,370
like they'll flood you with this emotion

2315
01:56:16,340 --> 01:56:14,130
of like love and you can even feel like

2316
01:56:18,580 --> 01:56:16,350
you're in love with that being some

2317
01:56:23,150 --> 01:56:18,590
degree because of the what they're pump

2318
01:56:25,340 --> 01:56:23,160
making suggesting into your mind but

2319
01:56:27,080 --> 01:56:25,350
then when you're away from it you

2320
01:56:30,919 --> 01:56:27,090
realize they're doing the same types of

2321
01:56:35,720 --> 01:56:30,929
manipulation that any other being is

2322
01:56:42,410 --> 01:56:35,730
doing is that are you speaking from

2323
01:56:44,570 --> 01:56:42,420
experience yeah yeah the the I didn't

2324
01:56:47,419 --> 01:56:44,580
get a chance to get into this with Nick

2325
01:56:49,070 --> 01:56:47,429
tonight and I meant to by the way it

2326
01:56:51,080 --> 01:56:49,080
just it got away from me

2327
01:56:54,350 --> 01:56:51,090
but the

2328
01:56:56,540 --> 01:56:54,360
blue guys that Whitley has written about

2329
01:56:58,910 --> 01:56:56,550
spoken about for years we were talking

2330
01:57:03,620 --> 01:56:58,920
about him last night have you

2331
01:57:05,750 --> 01:57:03,630
encountered them I have I've encountered

2332
01:57:09,830 --> 01:57:05,760
in fact I encountered them from the

2333
01:57:13,550 --> 01:57:09,840
point of my early childhood into the I'm

2334
01:57:17,359 --> 01:57:13,560
35 now I haven't seen anything that was

2335
01:57:20,060 --> 01:57:17,369
alien and about since about 2011

2336
01:57:22,310 --> 01:57:20,070
wouldn't my wife split up I don't know

2337
01:57:25,970 --> 01:57:22,320
why around that time it ended but it

2338
01:57:27,830 --> 01:57:25,980
seemed to end around that time in kind

2339
01:57:32,060 --> 01:57:27,840
of changed direction and become more

2340
01:57:33,770 --> 01:57:32,070
like dream oriented and astral but I

2341
01:57:35,950 --> 01:57:33,780
definitely had a lot of physical

2342
01:57:39,560 --> 01:57:35,960
experiences starting from an early age

2343
01:57:43,220 --> 01:57:39,570
all right we're the the blue beings as

2344
01:57:46,339 --> 01:57:43,230
whitley has described them I haven't I

2345
01:57:48,770 --> 01:57:46,349
haven't encountered them so I I really

2346
01:57:51,830 --> 01:57:48,780
don't have well you know I've seen it

2347
01:57:55,370 --> 01:57:51,840
I've read communion and I've seen the

2348
01:57:57,290 --> 01:57:55,380
communion movie and he tries to depict

2349
01:57:59,899 --> 01:57:57,300
they tried to depict him in the movie

2350
01:58:04,430 --> 01:57:59,909
but they're not perfect I think the

2351
01:58:07,580 --> 01:58:04,440
ghost description is pretty close you

2352
01:58:11,419 --> 01:58:07,590
know for whatever reason I see them in

2353
01:58:14,120 --> 01:58:11,429
twos he said threes but I've always seen

2354
01:58:16,310 --> 01:58:14,130
them in pairs and I've always thought

2355
01:58:22,070 --> 01:58:16,320
they were possibly the same beings every

2356
01:58:25,609 --> 01:58:22,080
time with them did you know that Rita

2357
01:58:27,500 --> 01:58:25,619
and I tried to watch communion a couple

2358
01:58:30,770 --> 01:58:27,510
of weeks ago can't find it it doesn't

2359
01:58:34,100 --> 01:58:30,780
stream and it's not available for for

2360
01:58:38,120 --> 01:58:34,110
purchase to view either to rent or to

2361
01:58:41,000 --> 01:58:38,130
purchase online that's crazy I mean I

2362
01:58:42,950 --> 01:58:41,010
it's not the best I don't know how it

2363
01:58:45,680 --> 01:58:42,960
holds up but it is kind of a good litmus

2364
01:58:47,390 --> 01:58:45,690
test for yourself I think that movie

2365
01:58:54,890 --> 01:58:47,400
scared the crap out of me the book

2366
01:59:01,140 --> 01:58:54,900
scared me too as well it scared me in

2367
01:59:04,140 --> 01:59:01,150
that it felt to me that these were

2368
01:59:07,290 --> 01:59:04,150
real experiences that were documented in

2369
01:59:10,410 --> 01:59:07,300
the book and and that's that right that

2370
01:59:13,020 --> 01:59:10,420
the the book is absolutely nonfiction

2371
01:59:17,790 --> 01:59:13,030
it's a historical record that's why it

2372
01:59:22,470 --> 01:59:17,800
scared me the way that Christopher

2373
01:59:24,060 --> 01:59:22,480
Walken is so scared in the movie and

2374
01:59:26,310 --> 01:59:24,070
with these little guys running around

2375
01:59:28,320 --> 01:59:26,320
and the way that they were depicted that

2376
01:59:31,620 --> 01:59:28,330
scared the crap out of me it really did

2377
01:59:33,240 --> 01:59:31,630
it terrified me yeah especially the

2378
01:59:37,400 --> 01:59:33,250
scene when he gets on the bus and you

2379
01:59:40,680 --> 01:59:37,410
see all the Mantis beings yes yes yes

2380
01:59:43,170 --> 01:59:40,690
it's images like that that really brings

2381
01:59:45,000 --> 01:59:43,180
memories back to me and the that was a

2382
01:59:46,950 --> 01:59:45,010
big part of me coming to terms with a

2383
01:59:51,180 --> 01:59:46,960
lot of this stuff now I wanted to get

2384
01:59:53,220 --> 01:59:51,190
back to the little blue guys did you

2385
01:59:58,470 --> 01:59:53,230
have interaction with them but you did

2386
02:00:02,760 --> 01:59:58,480
you speak with them hey you know it's

2387
02:00:06,300 --> 02:00:02,770
like they would appear anytime something

2388
02:00:11,150 --> 02:00:06,310
else wanted to oh just me and it was

2389
02:00:14,280 --> 02:00:11,160
like in order to abducts me they had to

2390
02:00:17,640 --> 02:00:14,290
interact with them in some way and they

2391
02:00:21,750 --> 02:00:17,650
always had this wand I call it a wand it

2392
02:00:24,330 --> 02:00:21,760
looked almost like a little toy but it

2393
02:00:26,310 --> 02:00:24,340
was like it was just this thing they

2394
02:00:28,860 --> 02:00:26,320
held in their hand and they and they

2395
02:00:30,720 --> 02:00:28,870
would touch me with it and I would feel

2396
02:00:35,190 --> 02:00:30,730
like an electrical current run through

2397
02:00:37,170 --> 02:00:35,200
my body and then whatever beings of that

2398
02:00:40,590 --> 02:00:37,180
but then my abduction experience would

2399
02:00:44,490 --> 02:00:40,600
happen from that point forward so if

2400
02:00:45,390 --> 02:00:44,500
they were they were first almost always

2401
02:00:48,870 --> 02:00:45,400
yes

2402
02:00:51,210 --> 02:00:48,880
and says it would just be them but night

2403
02:00:53,700 --> 02:00:51,220
every time something else was there they

2404
02:00:57,960 --> 02:00:53,710
were always there now

2405
02:01:00,300 --> 02:00:57,970
Whitley and you know you've been a dream

2406
02:01:03,510 --> 02:01:00,310
Lander so even following Whitley for a

2407
02:01:10,840 --> 02:01:03,520
while and yeah and I talked to him about

2408
02:01:13,810 --> 02:01:10,850
this briefly last night he then said

2409
02:01:21,460 --> 02:01:13,820
that they said that he understood that

2410
02:01:24,070 --> 02:01:21,470
they were us but almost like for from

2411
02:01:26,950 --> 02:01:24,080
fright you know representing death I

2412
02:01:31,540 --> 02:01:26,960
guess is the best way that I could put

2413
02:01:33,340 --> 02:01:31,550
it that I definitely believe there's

2414
02:01:34,360 --> 02:01:33,350
some type of thing almost like a

2415
02:01:36,130 --> 02:01:34,370
psychopath

2416
02:01:38,770 --> 02:01:36,140
they haven't worried do with us here on

2417
02:01:41,250 --> 02:01:38,780
earth right then they specifically do

2418
02:01:45,070 --> 02:01:41,260
have to do something in outer space

2419
02:01:46,960 --> 02:01:45,080
but something from outer space comes it

2420
02:01:50,290 --> 02:01:46,970
has to have their permission to enter

2421
02:01:52,870 --> 02:01:50,300
into I mean it's they're like I wouldn't

2422
02:01:54,880 --> 02:01:52,880
call you get oh I never thought of them

2423
02:01:56,710 --> 02:01:54,890
as maybe possibly being jinn or

2424
02:02:01,240 --> 02:01:56,720
something like that right

2425
02:02:04,330 --> 02:02:01,250
blue right that's the other part that's

2426
02:02:07,330 --> 02:02:04,340
the other part about this now the the

2427
02:02:12,700 --> 02:02:07,340
reason why I was so freaked out about

2428
02:02:18,660 --> 02:02:12,710
that is because history over and over

2429
02:02:22,780 --> 02:02:18,670
again has made reference to you know

2430
02:02:25,480 --> 02:02:22,790
things like these little blue guys and

2431
02:02:27,400 --> 02:02:25,490
it doesn't matter what culture what part

2432
02:02:30,160 --> 02:02:27,410
of the world you just brought up the

2433
02:02:33,820 --> 02:02:30,170
jinn we can talk about leprechauns for

2434
02:02:36,010 --> 02:02:33,830
that matter or fairies originally

2435
02:02:40,090 --> 02:02:36,020
started quickly started calling them at

2436
02:02:44,410 --> 02:02:40,100
first yes that's right and so you know

2437
02:02:47,950 --> 02:02:44,420
when we die is you know are they from

2438
02:02:53,020 --> 02:02:47,960
the world that we ascend to or cross

2439
02:02:56,080 --> 02:02:53,030
over to and I remember this is many here

2440
02:03:00,370 --> 02:02:56,090
and this is a long time ago and I

2441
02:03:04,300 --> 02:03:00,380
remember Whitley this is probably late

2442
02:03:08,200 --> 02:03:04,310
90s somewhere in there and I'm listening

2443
02:03:14,620 --> 02:03:08,210
to Whitley talk about this and in the

2444
02:03:19,080 --> 02:03:14,630
dark of all things right and it made

2445
02:03:22,180 --> 02:03:19,090
sense it's just made sense that this was

2446
02:03:23,260 --> 02:03:22,190
an interdimensional you know from

2447
02:03:25,390 --> 02:03:23,270
another parallel

2448
02:03:29,140 --> 02:03:25,400
world coming in two hours interfacing

2449
02:03:32,590 --> 02:03:29,150
with us and they were us this this is on

2450
02:03:35,070 --> 02:03:32,600
our planet this is an off planet this is

2451
02:03:38,530 --> 02:03:35,080
just what exists in another dimension

2452
02:03:41,170 --> 02:03:38,540
that we don't see that they cross over

2453
02:03:44,770 --> 02:03:41,180
to and then we are able to inter

2454
02:03:47,830 --> 02:03:44,780
interact with them and it's it was like

2455
02:03:53,400 --> 02:03:47,840
a terrifying but what's the word i

2456
02:03:59,770 --> 02:03:56,830
perfect for that all the time well so

2457
02:04:03,010 --> 02:03:59,780
that's my question to you did they did

2458
02:04:06,250 --> 02:04:03,020
they did they tell you that that's who

2459
02:04:08,800 --> 02:04:06,260
they were yeah I don't get a lot of

2460
02:04:11,290 --> 02:04:08,810
answers things but a lot of the times I

2461
02:04:15,430 --> 02:04:11,300
react with fear was Whitley even though

2462
02:04:17,410 --> 02:04:15,440
he's terrified he enters into it in a

2463
02:04:21,730 --> 02:04:17,420
way where he's just letting it be an

2464
02:04:23,650 --> 02:04:21,740
experience I was I I kind of take a

2465
02:04:28,440 --> 02:04:23,660
negative stance there's a lot of it but

2466
02:04:33,640 --> 02:04:31,930
and and I understand that and you and I

2467
02:04:35,770 --> 02:04:33,650
have talked about this before Ben you're

2468
02:04:39,030 --> 02:04:35,780
almost like a guest right now and I just

2469
02:04:44,260 --> 02:04:39,040
don't want this conversation to end the

2470
02:04:48,310 --> 02:04:44,270
but the negative aspect of it you were

2471
02:04:50,160 --> 02:04:48,320
never harmed were you not to a degree

2472
02:04:55,870 --> 02:04:50,170
where I can prove it no but

2473
02:04:57,610 --> 02:04:55,880
psychologically maybe but not many kinds

2474
02:05:01,450 --> 02:04:57,620
of physical way right

2475
02:05:03,670 --> 02:05:01,460
so the the fear that I'm talking about

2476
02:05:08,380 --> 02:05:03,680
when I say that you know I was scared

2477
02:05:10,150 --> 02:05:08,390
and the references scared me

2478
02:05:12,370 --> 02:05:10,160
now Whitley certainly had physical

2479
02:05:14,290 --> 02:05:12,380
things go down with him and he has a

2480
02:05:17,140 --> 02:05:14,300
reason to say that this is terrifying

2481
02:05:20,010 --> 02:05:17,150
and it's not cool I get that part of it

2482
02:05:24,280 --> 02:05:20,020
but I've never been physically harmed

2483
02:05:27,430 --> 02:05:24,290
you know I am the roughest abduction I

2484
02:05:32,560 --> 02:05:27,440
ever had was people pretending to be

2485
02:05:36,880 --> 02:05:32,570
aliens that were abducting me like like

2486
02:05:39,370 --> 02:05:36,890
like a my lab my lab I yes and

2487
02:05:42,160 --> 02:05:39,380
they were pretending how did you know

2488
02:05:45,790 --> 02:05:42,170
that they were pretending well because

2489
02:05:49,300 --> 02:05:45,800
they had like special gear on like I

2490
02:05:53,950 --> 02:05:49,310
could tell they were human because of

2491
02:05:58,450 --> 02:05:53,960
the whale or moving however you that was

2492
02:06:03,690 --> 02:05:58,460
my last abduction that was in 2013 about

2493
02:06:06,990 --> 02:06:03,700
Thanksgiving Thanksgiving of 2013 when

2494
02:06:09,670 --> 02:06:07,000
when did you first call into the show

2495
02:06:11,530 --> 02:06:09,680
right around them right around in that

2496
02:06:17,320 --> 02:06:11,540
time that's called for quite a few years

2497
02:06:19,030 --> 02:06:17,330
now yeah right and you said that the the

2498
02:06:21,240 --> 02:06:19,040
reason why I'm asking when it wasn't how

2499
02:06:24,130 --> 02:06:21,250
old were you because you would know

2500
02:06:25,630 --> 02:06:24,140
human movement he would understand that

2501
02:06:27,670 --> 02:06:25,640
that's what you were looking at that it

2502
02:06:30,510 --> 02:06:27,680
would be somebody in costume right we

2503
02:06:33,520 --> 02:06:30,520
know what when we see it on TV all right

2504
02:06:36,250 --> 02:06:33,530
when somebody is dressed up and and it's

2505
02:06:41,590 --> 02:06:36,260
not real and that's the vibe that you

2506
02:06:44,890 --> 02:06:41,600
got whoa who would have done it was it

2507
02:06:48,460 --> 02:06:44,900
the government why this happened right

2508
02:06:53,320 --> 02:06:48,470
it should be Richard Dolan breakaway

2509
02:06:58,720 --> 02:06:53,330
civilization to be should be just the

2510
02:07:01,180 --> 02:06:58,730
government but uh I I don't know I just

2511
02:07:05,620 --> 02:07:01,190
know it happens where did they take you

2512
02:07:09,520 --> 02:07:05,630
to well it was really crazy it was like

2513
02:07:15,010 --> 02:07:09,530
I was in my room and we'll in one sense

2514
02:07:19,990 --> 02:07:15,020
and almost like it was superimposed over

2515
02:07:21,730 --> 02:07:20,000
my reality was like another route like I

2516
02:07:24,250 --> 02:07:21,740
was in another room that I couldn't

2517
02:07:26,920 --> 02:07:24,260
quite make out but they were right on

2518
02:07:31,150 --> 02:07:26,930
top of me and there were four of them

2519
02:07:36,910 --> 02:07:31,160
and they were looking down on me I was

2520
02:07:38,830 --> 02:07:36,920
on a table and they wrote me over I

2521
02:07:40,720 --> 02:07:38,840
could hear twist and shout playing in

2522
02:07:44,080 --> 02:07:40,730
the background which was important to me

2523
02:07:45,490 --> 02:07:44,090
because of a big Beatles fan and they

2524
02:07:49,060 --> 02:07:45,500
wrote me over and they showed me a

2525
02:07:51,640 --> 02:07:49,070
stereo that was a stereo that I'd had

2526
02:07:57,290 --> 02:07:51,650
when I was young

2527
02:07:59,240 --> 02:07:57,300
and down to like a paint spot there I go

2528
02:08:01,340 --> 02:07:59,250
a little boombox that add layer even

2529
02:08:02,990 --> 02:08:01,350
like a white paint spots for where we

2530
02:08:06,770 --> 02:08:03,000
were using it once when we painted the

2531
02:08:09,950 --> 02:08:06,780
house stuff like that it was just it was

2532
02:08:11,420 --> 02:08:09,960
they but I could tell they were human by

2533
02:08:17,690 --> 02:08:11,430
the way they were moving and I could

2534
02:08:21,290 --> 02:08:17,700
tell it was there was this huge weight

2535
02:08:23,330 --> 02:08:21,300
in the room and everything just seemed

2536
02:08:26,870 --> 02:08:23,340
like two realities superimposed over

2537
02:08:29,810 --> 02:08:26,880
each other they wrote me over on my side

2538
02:08:33,350 --> 02:08:29,820
and I could feel them doing it and and

2539
02:08:36,350 --> 02:08:33,360
this was physical this is physical yes

2540
02:08:40,640 --> 02:08:36,360
and when you say I've only got two

2541
02:08:42,740 --> 02:08:40,650
minutes left and and I do have to sign

2542
02:08:47,210 --> 02:08:42,750
off at a network so before we get there

2543
02:08:50,420 --> 02:08:47,220
were they wearing masks like et mask and

2544
02:08:53,420 --> 02:08:50,430
makeup no what they were wearing we're

2545
02:08:55,070 --> 02:08:53,430
like almost like scuba gear except that

2546
02:08:59,690 --> 02:08:55,080
they had this headgear around their eyes

2547
02:09:01,820 --> 02:08:59,700
that made light light so it was like

2548
02:09:03,820 --> 02:09:01,830
bright light shining down at me coming

2549
02:09:08,380 --> 02:09:03,830
from both their eyes ciphered sockets

2550
02:09:11,240 --> 02:09:08,390
hmm and everything else was blacked out

2551
02:09:15,920 --> 02:09:11,250
but they look like some kind of

2552
02:09:19,700 --> 02:09:15,930
clandestine military unit to me hmm hmm

2553
02:09:21,760 --> 02:09:19,710
very interesting Nathan and but you

2554
02:09:24,620 --> 02:09:21,770
weren't harmed

2555
02:09:26,870 --> 02:09:24,630
no just terrified yeah of course you

2556
02:09:29,210 --> 02:09:26,880
were terrified I'm terrified sitting

2557
02:09:32,600 --> 02:09:29,220
here listening to you tell us about it

2558
02:09:34,970 --> 02:09:32,610
that's a horrible experience that nobody

2559
02:09:39,500 --> 02:09:34,980
should ever go through Wow

2560
02:09:41,720 --> 02:09:39,510
well Nathan thank you for for you know

2561
02:09:44,030 --> 02:09:41,730
and everybody that was on hold I'm sure

2562
02:09:46,160 --> 02:09:44,040
they're gonna understand why they were

2563
02:09:49,010 --> 02:09:46,170
left on hold I just didn't want to I

2564
02:09:51,410 --> 02:09:49,020
didn't want to cut this conversation

2565
02:09:54,170 --> 02:09:51,420
short so thank you for that and we'll

2566
02:09:56,270 --> 02:09:54,180
see you you know just be safe out there

2567
02:09:59,360 --> 02:09:56,280
and we'll see you tomorrow night with

2568
02:10:01,430 --> 02:09:59,370
Richard Dolan all right thank you and

2569
02:10:04,100 --> 02:10:01,440
yes with all the time right on Nathan

2570
02:10:08,360 --> 02:10:04,110
behave now okay

2571
02:10:09,860 --> 02:10:08,370
I'll talk to you and he you know

2572
02:10:13,520 --> 02:10:09,870
listening to Nathan right there he's

2573
02:10:15,170 --> 02:10:13,530
prey you know he brought up so many

2574
02:10:19,660 --> 02:10:15,180
interesting points and when we're

2575
02:10:23,540 --> 02:10:19,670
talking about different species for me

2576
02:10:27,200 --> 02:10:23,550
although I've heard so many different I

2577
02:10:32,150 --> 02:10:27,210
witness accounts about the descriptions

2578
02:10:35,000 --> 02:10:32,160
of them how would we be able to tell

2579
02:10:36,770 --> 02:10:35,010
them apart would they be able to tell

2580
02:10:40,960 --> 02:10:36,780
you know it's it's it's a weird

2581
02:10:43,190 --> 02:10:40,970
situation but until you are there and

2582
02:10:45,860 --> 02:10:43,200
experiencing it yourself

2583
02:10:48,310 --> 02:10:45,870
like Nathan has I don't have I don't

2584
02:10:52,760 --> 02:10:48,320
have a barometer I don't have a way to

2585
02:10:54,680 --> 02:10:52,770
to think about it I don't because I I

2586
02:10:57,380 --> 02:10:54,690
can't tell things apart I could tell my

2587
02:11:00,050 --> 02:10:57,390
dogs apart but that's different right

2588
02:11:01,100 --> 02:11:00,060
they're different colors and they're you

2589
02:11:06,230 --> 02:11:01,110
know but when we're dealing with

2590
02:11:14,380 --> 02:11:06,240
identical situations I think that there

2591
02:11:16,520 --> 02:11:14,390
is probably a cloning bio-hybrid Android

2592
02:11:19,310 --> 02:11:16,530
situation that you would have to have

2593
02:11:22,060 --> 02:11:19,320
when you're out there traveling the

2594
02:11:25,760 --> 02:11:22,070
universe and and between star systems

2595
02:11:27,950 --> 02:11:25,770
that that that's my take because that

2596
02:11:30,830 --> 02:11:27,960
would be an easy solution for us to turn

2597
02:11:32,840 --> 02:11:30,840
around and do the same thing and that is

2598
02:11:37,460 --> 02:11:32,850
of course basing everything on you know

2599
02:11:39,500 --> 02:11:37,470
long long journeys you know of space

2600
02:11:42,110 --> 02:11:39,510
travel if they're not doing it in

2601
02:11:44,390 --> 02:11:42,120
minutes or seconds but there you go all

2602
02:11:47,120 --> 02:11:44,400
right what a great show tonight

2603
02:11:49,850 --> 02:11:47,130
I do want to thank Nick Redfern for

2604
02:11:52,280 --> 02:11:49,860
coming in his links are over at Jimmy

2605
02:11:54,590 --> 02:11:52,290
Church radio.com the two new books the

2606
02:11:57,260 --> 02:11:54,600
alien book a guy to extraterrestrial

2607
02:12:00,380 --> 02:11:57,270
beings on earth and flying saucers from

2608
02:12:03,800 --> 02:12:00,390
the Kremlin you can go to Nick Redfern

2609
02:12:06,050 --> 02:12:03,810
for tea and dot blog spot.com the links

2610
02:12:07,220 --> 02:12:06,060
are at Jimmy Church radio calm tomorrow

2611
02:12:11,060 --> 02:12:07,230
night right here

2612
02:12:13,340 --> 02:12:11,070
Richard bleepin Dolan on fade to black

2613
02:12:15,650 --> 02:12:13,350
fade the blacks executive producer is

2614
02:12:16,510 --> 02:12:15,660
ritika Murray on show is produced by

2615
02:12:19,180 --> 02:12:16,520
Hilton Jay Paul

2616
02:12:21,460 --> 02:12:19,190
Rene Dennis and Bob announces our Steve

2617
02:12:24,220 --> 02:12:21,470
Carter Jean Patou a marked D Kovar

2618
02:12:27,130 --> 02:12:24,230
webmaster is Drew the geek music does

2619
02:12:30,250 --> 02:12:27,140
aldrich intros space boys space boy

2620
02:12:32,260 --> 02:12:30,260
music calm painted black is produced by

2621
02:12:35,590 --> 02:12:32,270
kjsurya of the game-changer network in

2622
02:12:37,840 --> 02:12:35,600
syndication as k GRA the planet whose

2623
02:12:39,340 --> 02:12:37,850
broadcast zone and copyright of 2019 by

2624
02:12:39,940 --> 02:12:39,350
paid to black in the game-changer

2625
02:12:42,640 --> 02:12:39,950
Network

2626
02:12:44,350 --> 02:12:42,650
it cannot be rebroadcast downloaded

2627
02:12:46,630 --> 02:12:44,360
copied or used anywhere in the known

2628
02:12:48,610 --> 02:12:46,640
universe without written permission from

2629
02:12:51,250 --> 02:12:48,620
fade to black or the game changer

2630
02:12:53,530 --> 02:12:51,260
Network our meals Timmy church tomorrow

2631
02:12:57,190 --> 02:12:53,540
night Richard Dolan you can follow me on

2632
02:13:01,330 --> 02:12:57,200
twitter IG Church radio until tomorrow

2633
02:13:03,140 --> 02:13:01,340
night I want everybody to be safe go

2634
02:13:14,360 --> 02:13:03,150
back Lee taffy